Industry Committee on March 10th, 2020

[Jérôme Birot]

One challenge with this approach is that there may be legitimate calls from legitimate people in those countries trying to reach our shores, trying to reach Canadian families here. That's the danger of making arbitrary decisions in a network at the tail end. At the source, yes. Can we enforce that? It's outside of everyone's jurisdiction here, unfortunately. Should we all work together? Absolutely.

[Howard Slawner]

I would echo that as well. I think the RCMP, Global Affairs Canada and the CRTC should continue working with their partners abroad. We understand the challenges they may have, but I think we have to continue putting pressure and attack this problem by every method possible.

[Jonathan Daniels]

I also agree. We actively work not just with our Canadian counterparts but with U.S. carriers. We sit on forums with them. We try to exchange. We've done some experiments to learn from them. However, in terms of getting to the source, that's really at a government level.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Originally, you were required to deploy the STIR/SHAKEN framework in March, but the deadline was pushed to September 30.

Do you think that's a realistic deadline?

Your reactions appear rather mixed. Should we anticipate another request for an extension?

[John MacKenzie, Director, Regulatory Affairs, TELUS Communications Inc.]

At Telus, we think that the September 30 deadline will be earlier than will allow...it won't allow any particular consumer benefits for the reasons that Mr. Daniels has pointed out, and Mr. Birot—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'm going to reword the question. You had until February 24 to submit a status report. Did you submit the report?

Did you formally advise the CRTC of the limitations?

[John MacKenzie]

Absolutely, we reported that. We identified the limitations and what we thought was a better schedule.

[Howard Slawner]

I agree. It is doable to get the network equipment done at that time, but a better timetable would give us the sufficient amount of time to actually get the standards correct and get the equipment rolled through.

[Jonathan Daniels]

I have the same answer.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Great. That's all for me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

The next round of questions goes to MP Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you.

I'll follow up with that questioning.

There's nothing on your network side in your capabilities that's stopping STIR/SHAKEN then. Is that correct?

[Jonathan Daniels]

No, that's not correct. I've talked about the devices for the end-user, but in our network, which is what you're asking about, our actual switches themselves have to be upgraded to be able to handle that. We're in the process of doing that with all of our vendors, so not all of our switches are ready to do that.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

That would be the only—

[Jonathan Daniels]

It would not be the only thing. I'm trying to avoid getting more technical or into more things. There are many other things.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

What I'm getting at here, though, is that there seems to be a reluctance to some degree. Some of this can be consumer-driven, on a positive end, for consumers wishing to take advantage of STIR/SHAKEN by replacing outdated equipment and so forth. I guess I'm getting mixed signals on this. There's a right for consumer choice. It shouldn't be the excuse not to do something or to slow something down if somebody chooses to update their own telephone system and so forth.

I want to make sure I get this one correct. This question is for everybody.

Do I understand that everybody here provides free caller ID or identification or blocking? Is there no charge to any of your customers for any of that type of thing?

[Jérôme Birot]

That's correct.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Rogers.

[Howard Slawner]

I'm not sure. I don't believe we have any fees for caller ID or anything like that. I'll double-check, but I don't think we do.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

You do.

[Howard Slawner]

We do? Okay. I'll check.

[Jonathan Daniels]

I believe we do, in terms of.... I just want to be clear. That's a bit different—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'm sorry, but this is my time. I just want a straightforward answer on that. For some of my constituents—and I know with my service provider that I have to bundle that with something else that I don't want or not get it. That's an economic barrier for some Canadians. I think allowing for protection for some people who can afford it and not for others who can't is patently unfair. I'd ask you to revisit those policies, because even if they are offered for free, sometimes they're bundled with other things.

When it comes to the CRTC enforcement systems in place, Rogers—I'm calling you by your company's name; Sorry, Mr. Slawner—you mentioned, and I'm a big fan of this, too, that if you break the rules, you get punished for it. The CRTC has used AMPs in a way that I don't think is terribly effective at times and they can be a loss leader for some businesses. It's better to plead for forgiveness than to ask for permission. What more could they do that would actually get the bad actors out of the way?

[Howard Slawner]

On the one hand, I want to express that they are trying their best. I do believe that. The problem you have with the bad actors out there is that they don't care about the rules. That was kind of the point we were trying to make. You have these DNCL rules, but the people, especially the ones who are abroad, aren't listening and are never going to listen to them. They simply ignore the law and there's really nothing for the CRTC to actually do. That was the real point I was trying to make.

With regard to broadening their efforts, I just think that when they do find Canadian connections to these mostly international schemes, they do need to pursue them, working with our RCMP partners, and make an example of them.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

There has been lots of testimony over the years about the CRTC needing an update and also having some timelines for decisions. You don't even have a timeline for your application, in terms of the CRTC. Is that correct? It's going to go through its regular process, but that could take quite some time.