Industry Committee on May 27th, 2021

[Mark Carney]

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

Let me use the terms very precisely. You asked the question about carbon neutral. I'm going to distinguish between carbon neutral and net zero. Carbon neutral relates to emissions reductions and avoidance. Net zero, of course, is reductions versus emissions themselves.

Brookfield Asset Management as a whole is carbon neutral. In other words, the scale of avoided emissions more than compensates for the emissions of other companies—other assets—that it owns or controls. It is not net zero. In other words, there are considerable avoided emissions. Let me explain that—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Well, I don't have that much time. I'm just wondering, as there was a gap between what was said by you and what was expressed. I'm just looking at what the company had done since that time. I'm not really.... I'm just trying to look for what happened over the last several months.

[Mark Carney]

Well, these definitions are important—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Well, it's my question time and I don't need definitions. I just want to know. There was a discrepancy. It was very public. It was in Reuters. There were a series of different news articles, and I'm just asking what has been done to narrow that gap. Perhaps there was nothing. I don't know. I'm just....

[Mark Carney]

Mr. Masse, since you don't want a definition.... You asked about carbon neutrality. Brookfield Asset Management is carbon neutral because the scale of the emissions reduced are more than twice the emissions of, for example, Toronto. There are 20,000 megawatts of renewable power. It's one of the largest private renewable—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I was asking about what was done between the discrepancy that took place.... That's fine. I don't....

[Mark Carney]

Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Masse, but you are asking about different things, and this is important.

So, again, from a Canadian perspective, neutrality or avoided emissions would include—this is not an issue for Brookfield, but for Canada as a whole—the preservation of nature-based solutions, very large potential benefits for indigenous populations and regional populations across Canada. That is an important distinction. I was responding to your specific question, which was about carbon neutrality.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

All I was asking was what took place.... I didn't ask for definitions. I was asking what was done at your company between the discrepancy between your remarks and the interpretation that was in the media reports later. I don't know what has happened over the last three or four months. That was the opportunity I was offering you, to actually explain what you had physically got done to address the gap between the two. That was an opportunity I was trying to afford you.

I'm going to go to Mr. Bonapace. With regard to the practical applications of building projects, what are the specific things that can be done to enhance, I guess, getting off the grid for builds? If you had three things to talk about with regard to making easier access for the development, what would those things be? We have federal incentives that have come and gone over the years. What would those things be? In the past they have been windows and doors. In fact, some governments have actually allowed incentives for decks and fencing. More specifically, other things have been targeted—lower emissions. What would be the things that you would suggest?

[Dany Bonapace]

I'm sorry, Mr. Masse. Could you just define the question a little more precisely so I can understand?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes, sorry. What would be the incentives or the parameters for allowing the development to take place to help people remove themselves from energy dependency. In the past we've had programs that have had incentives to do anything, from building decks to fences, but other ones have been geared to windows, doors and lower emissions. Are there three things that you would suggest, where, if there were incentives, those should be targeted to?

[Dany Bonapace]

Well, essentially, I think that everybody should be an energy producer in Canada. I don't think it should specifically be for the big players. A lot of wealth is associated to energy, and I think it's something that should be shared among us all.

Specifically, I would target everything, all the incentives that can be used to produce energy. You understand that this is as much in the building industry as in the renewables industry. I think that everything that can be done to help newcomers in the industry is essential, because people like me who have changed the industry and want to make a difference understand that we have to produce and save. In producing, we need to build business models to access this. In helping to either finance these renewable energy products or finance the retrofits of our buildings and putting in the Mitrex products are all essentially good, because we're generating electricity. If we're producing more than we need, we can just send some to other markets that need to have—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'm running out of time. But, as an example, really quickly, the support, say, for having cars that provide energy for homes in downtimes and selling that back to the grid is probably a positive thing. That's what Calibre is doing.

[Dany Bonapace]

Oh, absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

My apologies, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you.

Sorry, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Okay. You usually give up a little time every meeting, so I gave you a little extra there.

We'll now start our second round of questions.

Our first five-minute round goes to MP Poilieve.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Your company and your company alone, Mr. Carney, has the legal authority to reject the subsidies that have doubled power bills for poor and working-class Ontarians.

I have a simple yes-or-no question. Will you turn down those subsidies to give Ontario's poor a break? Just answer with a yes or no.

[Mark Carney]

Mr. Poilievre, as you said moments ago, there are contracts put in place between the Ontario government and players in the Ontario power market that are providing electricity for Ontarians—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Overcharging. Yes or no?

[Mark Carney]

—so both sides of those contracts are honoured.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Yes or no?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Mr. Poilievre, may I ask you to not speak over the witness? I can't hear the answer and, therefore, the interpreters can't.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

What is the point of order?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

The point of order is that the rule is that the answer mustn't exceed the length of the question. Mr. Carney has had that length. He hasn't answered the question.

Can we move on?