Industry Committee on May 27th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 41 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few rules. Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English or French. Please make your selection now.

I remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are not speaking, please make sure your microphone is on mute. For the sake of the interpreters, please do not speak over each other.

As is my normal practice, I will hold up a yellow card when you have 30 seconds remaining in your intervention. I will hold up a red card when your time for questions has expired. Please keep your screen in gallery view so that you can see the cards when I hold them up.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on November 5, 2020, the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology is meeting today to conclude its study on the green economic recovery from COVID-19.

I would like now to welcome our witnesses.

Today, we are hearing from Dany Bonapace, as well as François Giroux, consultant in the development of innovative transport solutions.

From Brookfield Asset Management, we have Mr. Mark Carney, vice-chair; from the Canadian Electricity Association, Mr. Francis Bradley, president and CEO; from GHGSat Inc., Mr. Eric Choi, director, business development; from Mitrex: Integrated Solar Technology, we have Mr. Danial Hadizadeh, president and CEO, and Mr. Hesam Shahrivar, head of planning and development.

Each witness will present for up to five minutes, followed by rounds of questions.

With that, we will start with Mr. Bonapace.

Go ahead for five minutes.

[Dany Bonapace, As an Individual]

Good morning.

I will be speaking French since it's my first language, but I do understand well if you have questions in English.

Good morning, my name is Dany Bonapace. I am a real estate developer who has had a good deal of success in his career, both here, in Canada, and internationally. I am worried about our children's future, given the major challenges caused by climate change and the fact that time is not on our side. In my case, it has become increasingly difficult to rationalize the situation and to continue to prosper in my industry knowing that so many sustainability issues exist. My reasoning was quite simple: we are few who must act for many, for all the people around the world who cannot act because they are fighting for their survival every day, as well as for those who do not want to act.

As a developer who has acquired money and experience over his 30–year career, I told myself that the most logical thing to do was work on large–scope business projects. That led me to carry out a first artificial intelligence project in building energy efficiency, a high–priority niche, considering the inefficiency of the global housing stock in that area.

I am not not talking about technology as much as the fact that it took me, in my opinion, a long time [technical difficulties] to create artificial intelligence. I feel that I won't be the only entrepreneur in Canada or on the planet who will tell themselves that we must participate in the war effort against climate change and who will have the means and the experience to do so. However, if we let all entrepreneurs work in isolation and take as much time as me to successfully carry out an initial project, we will never manage to accomplish what we need to do within the required time frames.

That is what has led me to recommend to the government strategies to foster the integration of those new players, who will go from their industry to energy [technical difficulties]. Those are things that can be quite simple for the government. For example, it is just a matter of explaining, as the orchestra conductor, the global decarbonization roadmap, the priorities and places where those entrepreneurs can invest their time and their money more quickly. A real estate developer should [technical difficulties] renewable. That is easier for them than to carry out an artificial intelligence project, as the same business structures are used and the same steps go into carrying out a renewable energy project.

Therefore, at the outset, accelerating the entrepreneur's involvement has an important impact. It is also a matter of promoting networking. I was not a multinational or Ontario Hydro. It took me forever to find an energy efficiency consultant who would accept me and would understand [technical difficulties], while it should take a day. The same goes for networking. Networks can be created among developers to integrate the market that is already taken up by large players. Large players need small players to achieve their goals, just as mining companies need beginners to build their company.

I will give you one last high-priority example. It is important for governments to close the gap between capital markets and developers. There is still a gap that is slowing down entrepreneurs' and developers' involvement in this industry. These are things that are both complex and simple, but capital must be made more accessible and less expensive for promoters. Perhaps it would be enough to guarantee [technical difficulties] the perception of credit and risk creates a problem.

In closing, we all have a role to play—individuals and entrepreneurs, governments and financial institutions. What I think is certain is that governments are the link that will help us all accelerate our transition and achieve our objectives. That would also give entrepreneurs an opportunity to sell their products and their services internationally to make our nation prosper.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you, Mr. Bonapace.

I'm going to ask the technicians to check your connection because it cut in and out a few times. Someone should be contacting you.

Mr. Giroux, it is now your turn. You have five minutes. Please go ahead.

[François Giroux, Consultant, Development of Innovative Transport Solutions, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning.

French is my mother tongue, so even though I can get by in English, I will be making my presentation in French.

I would like to thank Mr. Lemire, the member who represents the riding of Abitibi—Témiscamingue. It is thanks to him that I am appearing before the committee today.

Hydrogen is a vital ingredient in the electrification of transportation. I want to emphasize the electrification of transportation. Canada is already a leader in the heavy-duty vehicle and bus sector. Lion Electric was proud to announce recent investments in the area.

I am here today to talk about the role hydrogen can play in transportation.

Currently, the transportation sector relies on fossil fuels and diesel combustion engines, making it responsible for a large share of the world's greenhouse gas emissions. The contribution of Canada's transportation sector is much too big, and may be due to the vast distances being travelled and Canada's specific climate.

It's fair to say that the electrification of transportation overall will always be limited by the amount of energy in the vehicle's accumulator, the so-called battery. Despite advancements and the incredible work of Canadian researchers, the battery's weight and size limit the vehicle's carrying capacity, especially when it comes to trucks and passenger transportation vehicles, buses. The distances are always limited and not quite up to the industry's expectations.

For example, the amount of stored energy in the battery of a truck travelling from Abitibi to Montreal would be so great that the load capacity would be reduced. It would create a financial disadvantage for the operator. An unbelievable number of batteries would be required and the charging time would be an operational constraint for the company.

Battery technology is changing rapidly. Soon, we will see superbatteries with supercapacitors, which will help heavy-duty vehicle transportation and commercial transportation. Nevertheless, the hydrogen battery remains one of the best solutions. Allow me to explain what a hydrogen battery is.

It is simply a generator of electric energy, but without the combustion engine found in generators or systems that produce energy derived from fuel. Hydrogen batteries are manufactured in Canada, in the Burnaby area, by two leading companies, Ballard Power Systems and a joint venture between two big commercial vehicle manufacturers, Volvo and Mercedes-Benz. The two companies are already developing this new battery technology in Canada and Europe, which they announced with great fanfare.

Here's the best way to describe a hydrogen battery in a nutshell. It is a bit like the battery used to power the DeLorean in Back to the Future, which was fuelled by a can of beer and a banana peel. Instead, a fuel tank is installed and electricity is created. In an electric vehicle, such a battery would make it possible to transport very heavy loads and provide enough power to electrify the transportation sector.

The technology exists, so what are we waiting for?

The bus sector in Quebec and the transportation industry have been waiting for this. I would really like to see Canada work towards incorporating the technology into its heavy-duty vehicle industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you, Mr. Giroux.

We'll now turn to Mr. Carney.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Mark Carney, Vice-Chair, Brookfield Asset Management Inc.]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the members for the invitation and for your service.

I have just five minutes, so I will focus on five points.

First, fiscal sustainability is a necessary condition for Canadian prosperity. Parliament has provided extraordinary support to Canadians and Canadian businesses during the pandemic, but as the crisis recedes, Parliament must avoid structural deficits driven by spending today that does not grow the economy tomorrow. This discipline is particularly important given the looming pressures on health spending as the system recovers from the pandemic.

In the medium term, any fiscal deficit should reflect investments in human, digital, sustainable and natural capital that boost the long-term productive capacity of the economy. To help ensure that the government directs federal spending to the highest returns, capital investments should be subject to independent assessments of their long-term payback by the parliamentary budget office.

Second, Canada should make maximum use of non-fiscal policy levers including effective regulation, active competition policy, measures to promote a sustainable financial system and trade policy that benefit our small and medium-sized businesses and services sector. As U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen and I have outlined, credible and predictable regulatory policies that frame the future direction of the economy—such as explicit timetables to phase out internal combustion engines and mandates for increasing hydrogen usage—will pull forward and amplify private investment.

In this regard, policy frameworks with clear objectives and measurable outcomes are essential. Many of the building blocks for the net-zero transition are coming into place. The 2050 objective is being enshrined in law. The new 40% to 45% reduction target by 2030 provides a medium-term anchor. A legislated carbon price will help smooth adjustment. To provide greater clarity for the additional policy measures required, the new net-zero advisory body that's proposed should publish annual objective assessments of the adequacy of policies and policy options to close any gaps.

Third, it's time for a Canadian digital strategy that defines the foundations, capabilities and priorities of a digital economy in which all Canadians can thrive. The necessary initiatives are legion and merit separate study by this committee, but I'd stress the importance of Canadian-led low-earth orbit satellite systems that leapfrog existing high-speed technologies and bring enormous potential to create high-quality job opportunities across Canada.

More broadly, global connectivity can drive an explosion in opportunities for all Canadians in all regions in new platforms of global commerce. With an integrated trade, digital and financial strategies, Canadians in all regions can benefit from freer trade in services and for SMEs.

Fourth, we need clear pathways for a just and prosperous energy transition. In particular, eliminating three quarters of our greenhouse gas emissions from the final demand for energy requires a clean electricity grid by 2035 and at least a doubling of clean electricity generation as the energy source for transportation, residential and commercial property, technology, and industry. To these ends, the federal government should work with the provinces on complementary initiatives, including federal support for new grid interties for domestic resilience and international exports.

More broadly, the scale of the energy transition and the imperatives of regional solidarity support the reinvestment of proceeds from the energies of today into the energies of the future, including blue hydrogen, green hydrogen and small nuclear reactors, as well as essential supporting technologies such as CCUS, DACCS, and battery storage. The development of both the Canadian energy industry and the jobs of the future can be accelerated by refundable investment tax credits for a wide range of emerging low-emission technologies—including but not limited to CCUS and green hydrogen—and contracts for differences that promote demand for hydrogen, as well as targeted regulatory mandates, including for zero-emission vehicles and fuels.

Fifth, it's imperative to build a new financial system to enable the transition to net zero and ensure greater inclusion, better service and wider opportunities for Canadians. The objective of the COP26 private finance strategy is to put in place the information, tools and markets so that every financial decision takes climate change into account. The essential building blocks include mandatory risk disclosure based on the TCFD, net-zero plans of our major financial institutions consistent with GFANZ, methodologies to align financing portfolios with the net-zero transition, and major new markets for blended finance and carbon offsets. Particular markets for nature-based solutions can complement absolute emissions reductions while providing major opportunities for indigenous Canadians.

I'll refer you to the supporting documents. Thank you for this opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, Mr. Carney.

We'll now go to Mr. Bradley for five minutes.

[Francis Bradley, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Canadian Electricity Association, or CEA, is the national voice of the electricity sector. Our members operate in every province and territory in Canada, and include generation, transmission and distribution companies, as well as technology and service providers.

Electricity is at the heart of Canada's transition to a low-carbon economy. Over 80% of Canada's electricity generation is already non-emitting, making it one of the cleanest grids in the world. In fact, the Canadian electricity sector has already reduced GHG emissions by nearly 50% since 2005. Clean, reliable power will play an essential role as Canada begins to decarbonize through electrification.

Our sector is uniquely positioned to help advance Canada's clean energy future and meet climate commitments in 2030, 2050 and beyond. In fact, CEA released a list of actions for achieving net-zero carbon emissions; we have provided it to the clerk for your reference.

The focus of the study before you is how the Government of Canada can support industries in the transition to greener and more sustainable practices. Electricity is best positioned to enable this transition. The Canadian Institute for Climate Choices analyzed 60 pathways that it said could achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. All of them involved electricity, so we're going to need more electricity.

By 2050, Canada will need to produce two to three times as much clean power as it does right now. Facilitating this increase in clean power generation and ensuring that our sector can adopt innovative technologies is where government can provide support.

First, we should emphasize electrification. Grid investments should be program-focused and should improve the affordability and reliability of the system while reflecting Canada's diverse electricity markets. To do so, the federal government, in collaboration with stakeholders, industry and other levels of government, should develop and implement an electrification strategy to support decarbonization. This would guide Canada's approach to reducing GHG emissions in other sectors and to improving the economy.

Government should also work to enable electricity investments. As the economy restarts, it will be important for projects that are planned or under way to move forward. The Conference Board of Canada has estimated that there will be a need for $1.7 trillion in investments in the sector by 2050 to meet our climate goals. Deferrals and delays hinder stimulus efforts and our climate ambitions.

Regulatory modernization can also be done to enable investments more broadly. We were pleased to see the 2021 federal budget include funds for Measurement Canada to update rules for, among other things, zero-emission vehicles and charging infrastructure. Ultimately, as I told your colleagues at the environment committee last year, we need to update legislation.

We also need to think about how utilities are regulated economically. Electricity markets and rates are regulated by provincial regulatory commissions. As these bodies look to balance costs, innovative new projects that advance reliability and clean energy goals can face barriers before they get approved. There's a role for the federal government to play in working with the provinces to modernize this process.

Finally, help to scale up nascent technology is also needed. The electricity sector needs policy support and clear regulatory pathways for innovative technologies such as small modular reactors, hydrogen, energy storage, and carbon capture, utilization and storage. These could develop new export markets for Canada, beyond solving problems at home.

Each year, we look at the state of the Canadian electricity sector. This year's theme is renewal.

Canada's electricity grid is growing, driven by consumer demand and evolving technology. For Canada to reach net zero, our country will need to develop policies that encourage the grid to grow even further.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bradley.

We will now turn to Mr. Choi.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Eric Choi, Director, Business Development, GHGSat Inc.]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and members of the committee for the opportunity to appear this morning.

Let me start by saying a little bit about GHGSat. We're a small SME that was established in 2011 as a private sector solution to climate change. We are headquartered in Montreal, with offices in Ottawa and Calgary, and we now have international offices in Houston and London, England.

Our vision of GHGSat is to use satellites to become the global reference for the remote sensing of greenhouse gas emissions from any source in the world, thereby enabling stakeholders in the energy, resource, power generation, agricultural, waste management and sustainability sectors to make informed environmental decisions.

While there are obviously other satellites up there in space that also measure greenhouse gases, satellites from NASA and from the European Space Agency, for example, it's kind of a neat and remarkable fact that GHGSat, a Canadian SME, is currently the only private sector or government entity in the world that has satellites capable of high-resolution greenhouse gas measurement down to a resolution of only 25 metres. Our satellites—these Canadian satellites—are the only ones that can measure greenhouse gas emissions from sources as small as individual gas wells. This is a critical capability for attribution.

Space technology is going to play an increasingly important role in Canada’s transition to greener and more sustainable practices and to building back better. Out of the 50 essential climate variables identified by the World Meteorological Organization as needed to monitor climate change, 26 of these variables can only be effectively observed from space. Environmental satellites are therefore directly aligned with the goals of Canada’s 2030 agenda for sustainable development, specifically for taking urgent action to combat climate change and its impacts—which is goal number 13—and promoting inclusive and sustainable industrialization and fostering innovation, per goal 9.

When we talk about fields of technology, be it space technology or green technology, there are two ways in which the Government of Canada can play a role in nurturing innovation and expanding sustainable trade opportunities. The first is by investing in early-stage research and development. The second is by being an early adopter of new innovations, thereby lowering the risk and allowing the private sector to bring their new products and services to the international market.

Canada is a world leader in supporting early-stage R and D in both industry and academia. As an example of that, the innovative technology behind our methane monitoring satellites was developed with the support of Sustainable Development Technology Canada, the Canadian Space Agency and the industrial research assistance program of the National Research Council.

To ensure that Canada builds back better during the post-COVID economic recovery, an area of improvement for the Government of Canada would be to support industry beyond the initial R and D phase. One of the most effective measures that could be undertaken in this regard is to be an early adopter of new innovations and, furthermore, to be an ongoing anchor customer for green and sustainable technologies. This would strengthen Canadian competitiveness and expand trade opportunities, because one of the first things that a prospective customer asks internationally is whether a new product or service has been adopted by the domestic market.

There are examples of anchor tendency in the field of environmental satellites that we are familiar with, such as the NASA commercial small satellite data acquisition program in the U.S. or the third party missions programme of the European Space Agency.

This is going to be a pivotal year for Canada as we look forward to COP26 in November. One of the high-profile projects expected to come out of this UN climate conference is the International Methane Emissions Observatory—or IMEO—which is the project of the UN Environment Programme that is seeking contributions precisely of satellite data to identify methane super-emitters and thereby provide actionable data for diplomatic follow-up.

In recent months, we at GHGSat have been engaged with the relevant Government of Canada departments to discuss the potential of providing Canadian satellite methane data to the IMEO as a very highly visible demonstration of our country's commitment to fighting climate change.

To conclude, and to reiterate what some of the earlier speakers have said, the success of our post-pandemic recovery and the industrial transition to greener and more sustainable practices go hand in hand with both the government and the private sector as partners in this endeavour to build back better.

This concludes my prepared remarks, and I look forward to taking your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, Mr. Choi.

We will now go to Mitrex. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Danial Hadizadeh, President and Chief Executive Officer, Mitrex: Integrated Solar Technology]

Good morning, everyone.

Thank you, Madam Chair and the committee for inviting our company, Mitrex: Integrated Solar Technology, to appear as a witness.

Increases in urbanization, higher energy demands and non-renewable energy sources have created an environmental disaster in the form of climate change. Although the Canadian government has pledged to achieve net-zero carbon emissions by the year 2050, this is a huge goal, requiring everyone involved to achieve it in terms of commercial and economical options.

The COVID-19 pandemic showed us how vulnerable our society and economy are to external environmental factors. We as a nation may either continue to invest in the traditional carbon-emitting industries, or we may choose a different path for the recovery, the path that is greener and built back better than what we had.

Canada’s construction industry directly employs 1.4 million Canadians. From an environmental perspective, the buildings we construct are responsible for 17% of greenhouse gas emissions, which is an astonishing number if you're looking at the buildings that are being constructed today, and 75% of these inefficient buildings will still be standing in 2030 and beyond. Unless we build more sustainable buildings and existing buildings are retrofitted, I highly doubt that we can achieve our 2050 goals. This will be a key industry to rebuilding our economy while encouraging sustainable growth.

As a Canadian and as a human, you can always turn problems into solutions. This is one of those areas where we can turn it around, and develop a solution to create an opportunity out of the problem.

As cities grow, and as the high-rises are rising, we have this option. Our cities are growing vertically in the form of high-rises. This creates that specific opportunity. At Mitrex, we are creating the solution through BIPVs, building-integrated photovoltaics systems. These are building materials that are built with solar, and the solar is built within them. These are not added on top. These are not layers on top of layers. These are different groups of building materials that are built with solar.

The BIPV solves all of the problems that are mentioned regarding global warming and all of the issues we're having. BIPV is one of the solutions that can help us build more buildings, build better buildings, and help us achieve our goals by 2050.

Due to the significant R and D that we have done at Mitrex, the BIPV materials that we have created eliminate the trade-off between aesthetics and sustainability, and create positive financial impacts. We have solved the equation. We have created a product that is embedded into the materials. We can actually build our buildings using solar panels for the first time on the commercial stage.

This will create Canadian jobs in STEM fields and in skilled trades. As our country's portfolio of green buildings expands, so will Canada’s trade agenda, pursuing new agreements and opportunities that create jobs and economic benefits.

Greener buildings and sustainable construction will reduce energy demands and greenhouse gas emissions, helping us meet our 2050 net-zero goals and securing our environment’s future.

Thank you for your time and attention. We look forward to answering your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

We will now start our first six-minute round of questions.

Mr. Poilievre, you have the floor.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Carney, thank you for appearing.

Instead of increasing affordable emissions free of hydroelectricity, the former Ontario Liberal government decided to lock in 20-year price subsidies for multinational power companies for less reliable wind and solar power.

Ontario's financial accountability officer said last week that the prices paid to electricity generators under the green energy contracts are significantly higher than the average price of electricity in Ontario. These high contracted prices are one of the factors that contributed to the price of electricity in Ontario doubling between 2009 and 19.

Is your company, or are any of its subsidiaries, receiving payment under any of these contracts?

[Mark Carney]

First off, thank you for the question, Mr. Poilievre. I do not have knowledge of that. I can write back to the committee on it, but honestly, I don't know the answer.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

All right. You are the vice-president responsible for environmental, social and governance, and this is supposedly—

[Mark Carney]

To be specific, Monsieur Poilievre, my responsibilities are for developing an impact strategy, which is a new strategy at Brookfield. I'm not responsible for previous activities, although Brookfield has much to recommend it as a great Canadian company that has built a renewable—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Great. Thank you for that.

The Financial Post says that Brookfield Renewable Partners, Enbridge and TransAlta alone account for 38% of the subsidies. These subsidies are massive. They amount to a 150% subsidy for wind and 750% for solar. That drives up the cost of energy for everyday people. According to the Ontario Association of Food Banks in a report on the subject, it has created something called “energy poverty”. One victim of this social injustice was Sherry-Selena Hucul, a disabled single mother from Perth who's suffering with depression, anxiety, PTSD, type 2 diabetes and chronic pain from a car accident. Her bill rose to $309 a month despite conserving electricity.

I want to quote her:

My house is heated by wood and propane. My son requires a BiPAP machine for his severe obstructive sleep apnea syndrome.

Mr. Carney, she was terrified that the Liberal government was going to disconnect her power because she couldn't pay the bills, which rose to subsidize the profits of multinational corporations like yours.

I guess the question is very simple. Because you are in charge of impact investing, would you commit on behalf of Brookfield that your company will no longer accept these unjust subsidies, which are driving people in Ontario into poverty and desperation?

[Mark Carney]

Well, the first thing, Mr. Poilievre, is that the energy policy of Ontario is the responsibility of the Government of Ontario. It has been put in place. Part of that energy policy, as you know, has been to diversify energy sources. I'd associate myself with the comments by Mr. Bradley moments ago about the important roles that electricity and the broad range of electricity sources are going to play in Ontario's and Canada's transition to a more sustainable and inclusive economy.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

My question was, “Would you commit today to reject those subsidies?” You can do so. Your company can reject the subsidies and offer to charge the market rate, which is six cents, instead of the subsidized rate, which is about 15 cents per kilowatt hour. You could do that if you were not just interested in profits for your shareholders but in solidarity with people like Ms. Hucul.

Yes or no, would you commit today to doing that?

[Mark Carney]

Mr. Poilievre, the power supply in Ontario is subject to rules that are set. One of the most important things—and I'll go back to my earlier comments to the committee—is that to build a competitive, inclusive and sustainable economy on a foundation of sustainable power, it is critical that we have certainty and predictability. Part of what happens with the evolution—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

You're not answering my question. My question is whether you would put aside the interests of your profits and your shareholders for poor people who are going to the food bank because they can't pay their power bills. They're using that money to subsidize your company. If you really believe in solidarity and not just in profiting your shareholders, you could voluntarily reduce what you're charging the government and the people of Ontario. You could save people from having to go to the food bank to keep the lights on.

Yes or no, will you do that?

[Mark Carney]

Mr. Poilievre, before you stopped my answer.... you're giving one characterization of the power policy of the Government of Ontario, and there is a new Government of Ontario, I would add, that also has the ability to change a broad range of policies—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

They can't. It's a locked-in contract for 20 years.

[Mark Carney]

It is a locked-in contract—