Industry Committee on May 27th, 2021

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Yes, there you go. You knew that much.

[Mark Carney]

—and a relevant point. No, I'm just waiting for you to acknowledge it. I appreciate your acknowledging it, but what's also relevant and exceptionally important for Ms. Hucul and people in her situation.... One of the tragedies we have in Ontario and in Canada is people living in poverty—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

You're contributing to it.

[Mark Carney]

Now the instrument of solidarity to address poverty, broader poverty, is not targeted energy policy but a broader range of support policies—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

The solution is for you to stop breaking the law by overcharging them for electricity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Mr. Poilievre, that is your time.

May I gently remind you not to talk over each other so that the interpreters can do their work. Thank you.

We will now go to the next MP. It is MP Jowhari, for six minutes.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Let me start by welcoming all of our witnesses. Your testimony was quite informative on many fronts, so thank you very much and welcome to our committee.

I'm going to start with Mitrex and Mr. Hadizadeh. You talked about BIPV and about a new city that's going to be built that will be full of high-rise buildings. With the almost $2.24 billion that the federal government just announced for extending the subway to Richmond Hill north of Highway 427, the area along the southern part of Highway 427 is going to be full of developments, full of high-rise buildings. To a large extent, I understand, the technology that you're doing research and development for, BIPV, will help those. However, you also mentioned that about 75% of the buildings are old. In my riding of Richmond Hill, I have many old buildings that date back to 1970 and 1980.

How does your solution support those types of buildings? Do they have to be forgotten? How would your solution work with those types of buildings?

[Danial Hadizadeh]

Thank you, Mr. Jowhari.

Our solution basically applies to both retrofits and new construction. As we build more and more high-rises and more buildings, we are using concrete as architectural surfaces. That's one of the highest carbon-embodied materials you can use, as compared with the technology in solar, which has among the lowest carbon-embodied profiles.

At the same time, our point of view and our glasses to this world is that we integrate more solar into the materials that are in touch with the sun. Our building walls, our building windows or the roof are all in the line of solutions that we have created, and they're all applicable to the retrofitting of buildings that you mentioned from the 1970s and 1980s as well as to new construction.

One issue that we're going to face in the coming years is that all of those people who are living in older buildings won't have access to the EV markets, because these buildings are not designed to have more electricity, and it is the solution that we have. This is the key point, integrating more solar into the building materials and using it in retrofit and new construction, and we keep it in mind. We know the cost and we know the aesthetics and we know the installations. Those are all barriers to entry that we have had in the past many decades. It's why these products haven't been developed.

This is part of our solution—the retrofit and the EV market that's going to be connecting all of these buildings and charging all of those cars in the coming decades.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

You have talked about the EV market. This is where I want to go. With the interest and growing support of Canadians and investment that the Government of Canada is making in electrical vehicles, naturally these buildings that are much older need...and they park underground. Some of the underground parking lots are multi-level.

How would your solution be able to support that type of retrofit, so that as Canadians embrace electrical vehicles, they can park their cars on level 5 of a 20-year-old building and still be able to get benefit from the EV and from having a charging station?

How does that work? Can you demystify it for us?

[Danial Hadizadeh]

With our solution, every building will turn into a power plant. They become micro-power plants that are generating their own electricity. This is on top of the existing power that they have, which they can utilize in their charging stations or in their common elements or the units in whatever way they want. There is a micro-plant being built within the building that is producing green renewable energy for the decades to come. That's how we transform these buildings.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Would your solution integrate into the older building as well, so that the electricity can get many floors down? What kind of investment do developers need or those existing buildings need to consider to be able to benefit from this solution?

[Danial Hadizadeh]

That's a very good question.

We have managed to keep the costs in line with those of traditional materials while implementing these new technologies. That's our edge; that's our difference from many other companies on a global scale. We have an integrated factory to fully automate and integrate—a factory that we have in Etobicoke. We produce everything locally here.

The way we have managed to create a business model is with the power purchase agreement as well as the direct purchase agreement. The builders or the building owners are basically not spending a dollar more, but are receiving renewable energy. That's part of our business model, to transform the old building as well as the new buildings that are being built in Canada.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I only have about another 30 seconds.

How do you work with the existing regulations in the provinces, as they are in charge of setting the rates? How would your model work?

[Danial Hadizadeh]

Right now we are just working within the existing rates in Ontario. Most of our projects and supplies are in Ontario, but there are a lot of limiting regulations that prevent us. Even though governments are saying they are with green energy companies, once you start deploying, there are a lot of limitations they have put in place that prevent us, which are usually coming from Toronto Hydro or other energy providers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

We now go to Mr. Lemire.

You have six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First, I want to say what an informative and well put together panel this is. We heard about solutions for the transportation sector as well as energy efficiency in the building sector. The solutions are especially innovative, and both sectors provide opportunities to reduce Canada's carbon footprint.

Thank you, Mr. Bonapace, for being here today. My first question is for you.

In practical terms, what can we do to speed up the transition and help businesses?

[Dany Bonapace]

Basically, the answer to your question is to create the conditions conducive to an energy-to-performance ratio of 20:80.

My understanding and my experience [Technical difficulty—Editor] Canada's housing stock. That stock is pretty inefficient. The stock's energy efficiency, production and storage need improving. I quite agree with what the Mitrex representatives said.

The only problem is the slow pace of the transformation across the housing stock. It's a people-dominated sector, and people have a hard time changing their habits. If all we do is keep focusing on subsidies as an incentive to change, we will not reach our targets anytime soon. In short, a combination of penalties and subsidies is needed to speed up the transformation.

People take the path of least resistance. The first option is digital technologies that promote energy efficiency. They do not require a big investment in equipment. People don't have to make a slew of changes to increase their energy efficiency. Many of the artificial intelligence devices already on the market are interconnectable and have the ability to monitor all of the electromechanical systems on the premises. People can achieve at least 20% in energy savings without investing in any equipment. Those efficiency gains are significant when you consider the entire housing stock.

The best thing to do is not to produce more energy, but to save energy. That eliminates the burden of having to produce more.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Indeed.

I'm going to ask you the question again. What practical measures can we take to speed up the transition and help businesses?

[Dany Bonapace]

Sticking to the building sector, I would say it's necessary not only to produce more, but also to provide support. When electricity prices are down, solutions like the ones offered by Mitrex are harder to justify. Something else to consider is the use of artificial intelligence technology in buildings because the gains can be significant. By making very few changes, the industry can implement these technologies. Similarly, process industries could use the technology to achieve considerable savings.

As a guy who is very down to earth, I think your question is a really good one. In response, I would point to renewable energy production as well. My philosophy is simple: demand is way up and alternative energies are urgently needed to replace fossil fuels, so more players have to be allowed on the field and more projects have to be realized. I won't mince words; companies are permitted to engage in mining, oil drilling and logging on all Crown lands, but similar legislation still does not exist for renewable energy initiatives.

Consider this. I live along the Ontario border, and the clear-cutting under way is unbelievable. It's a vast space that could be covered in solar panels. It's a minute away from the border with Ontario, the second-largest GHG emitter. I realize political and jurisdictional issues come into play; Mr. Carney talked about the need to address them, given that climate change has no borders. It is imperative to find strategies, such as standards for renewable energy portfolios along with incentives.

That said, it is possible to designate more spaces to support more projects. I'll draw an analogy with the mining industry and junior mining companies. In mining, companies may be able to provide energy [Technical difficulty—Editor], which is about equivalent to flow-through shares. They were meant to support exploration by junior mining companies, which were able to propose a number of sites to major stakeholders in order to carry out more projects. A copy-and-paste approach could be applied, with a greater focus on solicitation.

I realize only Alberta is deregulated. Here's an interesting fact: seven people solicit for Alberta's big mining companies, but they are the only seven people in Canada who do so. That is far from enough. Tax breaks need to be leveraged to support exploration and find new sites in order to produce renewable energy.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have to ask the question a third time. What practical measures can the government take to support the transition and help businesses?

[Dany Bonapace]

I'll give you a quick answer, in 30 seconds. Take someone like me, for example, who sets up investment funds and has investors. If they have access to tax breaks, I have more latitude to help a developer, to manage more of the risk associated with getting a renewable energy project off the ground and seeing it through.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Bonapace.

[Dany Bonapace]

My pleasure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you.

We'll now go to MP Masse.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Carney, my first question is with regard to Brookfield Asset Management Inc. The claim was made that it was carbon neutral. It appears that's been walked back a little bit. That was a few months ago.

Perhaps you can provide us with what the differential was then and what has happened in that portfolio in the company you represent, over the last number of months, to correct that—or is it not going to be corrected? What's the current status of that?