Industry Committee on May 27th, 2021

[Mark Carney]

It's an enormous opportunity. Pea protein, for example, is a big and growing business opportunity for our Canadian farmers, yes.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

When we look at financing the additional investment we're going to need and look back at the scale of spending that we've seen even during the COVID crisis, and the disproportionate impacts of the COVID crisis on different parts of our society.... You've previously written that high income inequalities are dwarfed by staggering growth inequalities. You've written recently about how the market price has increasingly become divorced from human value.

Mariana Mazzucato has written about this as well. Both of you, to my knowledge, have said that we need to move beyond GDP. She has embraced wealth taxation, though.

Would you support a move towards a greater conversation about fair taxation in this country as we—in that language—“build back better”? Would you support a greater conversation around wealth taxation?

[Mark Carney]

If I may, I think the first thing is to mention what we need to do. Your first line of questioning is on the orders of magnitude of the investment we need for sustainable growth and inclusive growth. Bring that in the context of our existing budgetary envelope—in other words, our existing revenue envelope—and think about how we can optimize within that, and only then, move to these broader issues.

I'm a strong believer that the best way to reduce inequalities is to grow opportunity for a broader range of Canadians. I understand why we haven't discussed it, Chair, but I'll just refer to my supporting documents around a digital strategy because I think that could play a huge role in reducing inequality.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Lemire. You have two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Mr. Bonapace.

How can we produce more renewable energy?

We also have a representative of the Canadian Electricity Association with us, by the way.

Are artificial intelligence technologies and energy flow solutions good ways to help us achieve our goal?

[Dany Bonapace]

I'll keep it brief since we don't have a whole lot of time.

Despite the success I've had and the experience I've gained, developers like me who want to build renewable energy infrastructure still need support. It's a major area that is accessible to anyone with the resources to build the infrastructure.

I mentioned capital markets earlier. Anyone who is not Berkshire Hathaway is not looked upon favourably in terms of their debt repayment ability. If your power purchase agreement isn't with Amazon, it's a problem, but that rules out malls, [Technical difficulty—Editor] and other greenhouse gas producers.

We need to find ways to support developers, mechanisms like a transition bank that would obtain capital from existing banks and make it more accessible. I again want to stress the importance of a beneficial tax environment. Someone like me relies on project financing, which is basically a capital outlay by investment fund investors, and bank leveraging. Giving tax breaks to the investors, on one hand, helps developers like me, on the other.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Bonapace.

Mr. Carney, in a former life, I was a community engagement officer, so I would talk to young people about politics. Today's example might not be the best one to use, but I would ask them this question: If you were prime minister, what would you do differently to support the green economic recovery? What would you do that the current government is not doing?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you to the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

Our next round goes to MP Masse for two and a half minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Carney, I've had a digital bill of rights in the House of Commons for five years.

Do you support a digital bill of rights so that it's enshrined in legislation?

[Mark Carney]

I do, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Okay, thanks. I won't get into the specifics.

I am curious about following up with regard to expenditures, and revenue coming in, but there's also debt and interest incurred on Canadians.

I would ask, from your previous roles, do you believe that rising bank charges and fees are appropriate right now, or do you believe that government needs to step in to regulate? What's your position on that? I think these are important costs to Canadians right now. Fees are going up, and also credit card rates and so forth.

Can I get your opinion on those two things, whether you think they're fair for consumers right now and whether or not there needs to be government regulation on banking fees and credit card rates?

[Mark Carney]

I'll make two points.

The first is that I think it is important that that be included in the responsibilities of the FCAC, the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada, in terms of financial institution conduct and fairness.

Secondly, I'd underscore the opportunity, building from your digital bill of rights and my submission to this committee, the very large opportunity from competition in financial services for Canadians. What I mean is digital competition in financial services, where we have an opportunity to build—appropriately protected by a digital bill of rights, which is why you rightly started there—or use the data that exists in our economy, to use a new central bank digital currency and the opportunities that come from that, to significantly improve competition.

That will have a direct impact, in my judgment, on those credit card fees and banking fees, all the while providing better service fees—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I only have 30 seconds. I appreciate that as an ideology, but when that doesn't take place.... A good example is that in my riding I have banks that are closing their branches and so forth, and I have loan companies with high rates popping up, because nobody can cash even my government cheques.

Do you believe that there's a responsibility...and what is the breaking point for the government to intercept and to act on that? If there is not that point, I'd just appreciate knowing where that element is.

[Mark Carney]

I wholeheartedly disagree with your point that this is an ideology.

This is a major opportunity for Canadians. It's why I raised it in my opening remarks. I recommend that this committee, the government and Parliament take this seriously and seize this opportunity for Canadians, because this is how we'll have inclusive finance, better—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I tried to ask a sincere question about a position on this, and I don't want to be belligerent—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

MP Massey, my apologies. You're really over time.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you.

We only have two more groups of questions left. I know we're getting tight on time, so I'll ask everyone to please respect the clock.

MP Poilievre, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Is there anything that you can point to that you think the current federal government is doing wrong, as an example?

[Mark Carney]

I think in my opening comments.... I would say that I would reinforce the measures that were proposed in Bill C-12. In the interest of your time, I won't go into further detail on that, but it is one example that's directly relevant to this.

Secondly—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

You can't think of anything that they've done wrong? It's just a very short question.

[Mark Carney]

I'm giving an answer, if I may.

The second thing I would recommend for the government and Parliament to do, for the investment tax credits, which rightly, in my understanding of the budget, address carbon capture and storage and green hydrogen, is expand the application of them to at least all technologies under section 43.1 of the tax code. I would review that basket and expand it.

It thus depends on your definition of “wrong”. I think more can be done.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

May I ask you a question about your windmills? You boasted a lot about the windmills that Brookfield has. How many birds have those windmills killed?

[Mark Carney]

I have no idea.