Industry Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

They know affordability is our number one priority. We have to strike that right balance, of course, with investment. That's going to be critical, but we need to see prices go down.

As I indicated, high-speed Internet connectivity is not a luxury; it's essential. It's important that Canadians have access to good-quality networks at affordable prices.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you, Minister.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

We now move on to the next round.

Mr. Lemire, it is your turn for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Further to your previous answer, Ms. Joly, I would say the funding for the community sector is not always established with regional development in mind; it tends to be based on service delivery. I think that requires a rethink. CFDCs could be directed to help organizations adopt transformative visions.

Would it be possible to take the RRRF funding allocated under phases one and two, and turn it into recurrent funding for the joint CFDC fund, thereby increasing the corporations' core funding?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Lemire.

When I said that we had quadrupled the funding for CFDCs, I also referred to a legacy. I said that because, when businesses repay the CFDC funding they obtained, the CFDCs are going to keep that money; they won't have to give it back to the Government of Canada. Practically speaking, then, CFDC funding will increase.

CFDCs will be able to distribute the funding they receive however they like.

I would be glad to work with you on the way forward, because we know the vast majority of those loans will be repaid. Therefore, as part of the recovery, that CFDC-delivered funding will have a very significant impact on Quebec.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I want to thank you for the RRRF program, as I mentioned before. I'm glad to hear that you won't be reducing the funding allocated to CFDCs, strictly speaking.

The Bloc Québécois believes that regional development has to be administered by the regions. Decisions affecting the future of Quebec's regions have to be made in Quebec. As we have previously stated, our position is as follows:

Canada's role is limited to what is laid out in the Constitution: transferring funding to Quebec for matters under Quebec's jurisdiction and deferring to Quebec's proximity and effectiveness in areas of shared jurisdiction.

I'd like to talk about support for innovation within Quebec's borders. Where do you stand on setting up a regional development and economic diversification fund to support the processing of natural resources in Quebec? The fund could be administered by and for the regions, through regional round tables made up of economic and organizational stakeholders, in co-operation with the Quebec government.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

The vision of the Government of Canada and, of course, the Liberal Party has always been to support a by and for the regions approach through the economic development agencies. That is precisely why they were created and why Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions, or CED, has such an extensive reach.

We decided to go even further by providing more direct support on the ground and promoting a network of CFDCs in the regions.

I would be pleased to discuss your idea of creating a regional fund. It speaks to a philosophy we share and that is to keep doing more for the regions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Bachrach, it is your turn.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. My apologies for not seeing the red card in my last round of questions.

I have a few more broadband questions for Minister Bains.

Minister Bains, one important dimension of this really vital need for broadband in rural areas is affordability. My understanding is that your government's key strategy for delivering broadband affordability is competition, yet in many rural areas the market simply isn't big enough to support multiple competitors. What is your government's approach to ensuring affordable broadband in rural and remote parts of Canada?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you very much for your question.

Your question underscores the strategy that we are deploying, which is how to promote competition. How do we create more regional players that can provide cell service as well as high-speed Internet connectivity options? How do they service rural and remote communities?

We're working to partner up with local Internet service providers. We're looking at all possible options of promoting more competition and supporting local companies that can provide this solution so that consumers can have more choice.

The objective is that when we have more competition, we are confident that the prices will go down. The balancing act is making sure that the prices are affordable for consumers and at the same time that we have an environment in which we continue to see meaningful investments.

That is why we've put forward these programs to help de-risk some of those investments, particularly for those rural and remote communities that need high-speed Internet connectivity.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The problem, Madam Chair, is that when you support these small, independent Internet providers, often, as soon as they're successful, they get bought out by Telus. This isn't working. We don't see that competition.

I wonder if the minister can respond to that.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

One way we're looking at addressing competition is by having a set-aside through our spectrum auction. We know spectrum is critical for telecommunication companies. When we have set-asides for spectrum, we know that this will create stronger regional players, enable them to get more market share and enable them to provide more affordable options. We know that's good for Canadians and consumers across the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We now go to MP Dreeshen. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'm happy to have a chance to speak to the ministers this morning.

I have one little comment, Mr. Bains, on the United Nations Office for Disaster Risk Reduction and its build back better plan. We lost that bid for the Security Council seat. Maybe now we could be concentrating on what is needed for Canadians and concentrate on that. Again, going back into the black-hole-of-government approach has not been helping us.

One comment that was made by Ms. Lambropoulos had to do with the discussions that had taken place and the lobbying efforts. Minister Bains, what information did you rely on to issue the government's order in council from August, effectively calling into question the CRTC's decision in 2019 on final wholesale access rates that would have substantially slashed the rates that consumers pay for Internet service?

The reason I'm asking for that information is that the CRTC spent six years arriving at its decision. It reviewed thousands of briefs. We know from the lobbyist registry data that there were more than 200 lobbying interactions from large telecom players leading up to the issuance of your order in council. What information did you rely on?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

Your question underscores the statement that I made with regard to our overall policy direction. That was highlighted in the policy directive that I provided over a year ago, which is that we need to make sure affordability is at the centre of all the decisions we make moving forward. We need to strike the right balance for investments, as well.

Government sets policy; we don't set the rates. Our guidance is to make sure that our policy direction is very clear when it comes to finding that balance between affordability and investment for high-speed Internet connectivity.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you very much for that. I appreciate it. It's an interesting answer, but actually many people would disagree. In fact, one totally independent organization, OpenMedia, which represents no other interest other than monitoring the groups around the Internet, notes in an article that your actions and the order in council undermines, and I quote, “Canada's best chance for affordable Internet”. It goes on to say, “On August 15, the government announced that...the CRTC’s wholesale Internet rates were too cheap, and might 'undermine investment' from telecom giants.” This is what you're saying right now.

Given that the CRTC spent six years studying the matter, what's the basis for coming to that conclusion, once again?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

My understanding is that the CRTC has made no final determination in terms of...but they're continuing to look into this issue. There have been further consultations and a review of it based on some of the feedback that they have received.

I can tell you right now, from my perspective, that affordability is important and making sure that Canadians have access at affordable prices for high-quality networks is important. That's the policy direction we gave. Not only did I say that in my statement for the wholesale rate, but I was very clear about that in the policy directive that I issued to the CRTC.

We made it abundantly clear that we wanted to have affordable prices for Canadians. At the same time, we want to make sure we invest in broadband, that we invest in rural connectivity and that we deal with the digital divide.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Minister, again this ties into the 2019 policy directive that you gave to CRTC. You noted that their work and their decisions should lean towards focusing on interests of consumers, which you've spoken about. Will you now be issuing another policy directive to CRTC overturning this and suggesting that they now focus on this new so-called “balancing” agenda, based on the discussions you've had with major telecoms?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

First of all, I work with everyone. I engage with stakeholders across the country, including with small Internet service providers and with advocacy organizations to hear all the different points of view. That has helped shape our policies in the past, and that continues to guide us going forward, with a razor-sharp focus on affordability. That is why we introduced, in our platform, a goal to reduce cellphone bills by 25%, and that is why we're providing quarterly updates for those plans that we committed on. We're seeing progress. That is why, as a government, we're investing in programs to make sure that Canadians have access at affordable—

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you very much.

I know I just have a few seconds left.

One of the key things that we want is reliability, because we have whole communities now that are online. Many in small businesses are suffering. As we look for cheap, let's also be looking for reliability and make sure that we are getting that out of the suppliers we have.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

I understand that Minister Bains has an announcement to make, so he has to leave. We do have one last slot of questions for Minister Joly.

Minister Bains, thank you so much for being with us today.

With that, I will turn to MP Amos. You have the floor for five minutes.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I very much appreciate Minister Bains and Minister Joly being with us today.

I listened attentively to the discussion between Minister Joly and the member for Abitibi—Témiscamingue about CFDCs.

I recall something oft-repeated by the Bloc Québécois during the 2019 election campaign: “We are Quebec. We are the regions.” Nevertheless, CFDCs are under federal jurisdiction and have been firmly rooted in Quebec's regions for a long time.

In the Gatineau valley, federally funded CFDCs have been in place for 40 years and have their own board of directors. That means they are firmly rooted in the region.

Minister Joly, by providing this extremely important funding to CFDCs, your department has expanded the opportunities available to small and medium-sized businesses as well as small communities. Could you comment on their appetite for those opportunities?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Amos.

I know that you are a champion of CFDCs. We've had many opportunities to discuss the issue, you and I, and we have met with CFDC representatives. Thank you for your work in that regard.

It goes without saying that CFDCs are important, and that is for two reasons. First, always having the ability to support regional development is vital, and that development is only possible when delivered by and for the regions, by and for business owners in the regions.

Second, the federal government has never been so involved in people's lives, because of the pandemic and because of the suite of services and supports the government is providing.

We have a greater presence on the ground thanks to CFDCs and the support they are delivering to businesses and entrepreneurs, who can have a hard time getting in touch with their banks and credit unions, which are often located hundreds of kilometres away.

During the pandemic, our role has been to make sure businesses in the regions are financially protected. We instructed CFDCs to deliver another type of support; they have started providing microcredit, especially in Quebec's regions.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you.

I completely agree with you. CFDCs are vital. Three CFDCs are active in the riding of Pontiac: the Pontiac CFDC, the Papineau-Collines CFDC and the Gatineau valley CFDC. All three benefited from an infusion of some $1.5 million during the pandemic. As you mentioned, it's a long-term investment given that the funding is being recycled, so to speak, through the region's small and medium-sized businesses. Currently, they have access to $40,000 loans, and if they repay $30,000 by the end of 2022, they will benefit from $10,000 in loan forgiveness. What's more, the $30,000 that is repaid will be reinvested. I think that's extremely important.

I want to take this opportunity to thank you, Minister, for being such an ardent supporter of CFDCs. I would also like to thank the entire network of CFDCs in Quebec for their tireless efforts. They do fantastic work, and it just goes to show what an important role the federal government plays in the everyday lives of people in the regions. In the past, we have seen the province scale back regional investments—hence, the significance of this federal support.