Industry Committee on May 8th, 2024

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I appreciate that. Those changes are important, but I'm talking about their allowing fraud to be such a dominant part of their operations, and especially that it continues to exist. I guess I can ask for further follow-up on that as well. I appreciate that things have changed.

What about roaming charges? What about eliminating roaming charges in Canada from the corporations that are doing this? I mean, it's terrible if you live along the border. It's atrocious in terms of the difference between what we pay for roaming in the United States and other places. We're totally out of whack with those.

What's your opinion on the current context of the telcos when it comes to roaming charges and what they're doing to Canadians?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

We're looking at everything to make life better for consumers. I know that some plans today have waived roaming charges or reduced them, but the challenge we have in this country is that there are so many plans for consumers to know.

That's why, for me, information is going to be key to making sure consumers can apply market pressure. We will do our part, which we've done, as you've seen. You've seen that I've been probably one of the most active on this file. Think about the TTC in Toronto and making sure that two million people would have access to cellphones.

We'll continue, though. If the committee has suggestions, I'm always happy to look at those. You've been a good partner in that to try to always to find ways for us to make life better for consumers.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I think regulating roaming charges would be good.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

We'll now turn to MP Williams for five minutes.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Minister, it's nice to see you again, sir.

The Deputy Prime Minister is on record as stating that companies are choosing Canada because we have a price on carbon. She said specifically that because of our policies, we're getting more investment in Canada, but after four years, sir, after COVID specifically, we're starting to see some data that really contrasts with that statement, specifically when we look at the Americans. We like to compare ourselves with our friends in the south and Mexico, but look at, for instance, Canada's GDP per capita. That's the amount of wealth that Canadians would hope to have. What we're seeing is that Canada's GDP per capita is going down, Mexico's is going up, and the U.S.A.'s is going way up. Neither of those nations has a price on carbon. It's so bad that Mexico just became the United States' largest trading partner—a title that we used to have. We actually dropped to number three for the U.S.A. It goes Mexico, then China and then Canada.

Why do we not give relief to companies in Canada that want to compete, by ensuring that they don't have a carbon tax? A lot of these companies are trying to develop clean technology to compete and in order to create great paycheques for Canadians.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'm delighted that you asked that question. I think it's a great moment to celebrate Canada. In fact, if you look at foreign direct investment in the world, the United States was first in 2023, Brazil was second and Canada was third. If you put that on a per capita basis, we have been the champion in the world.

Just to correct the record for those watching at home, if you include goods and services, Canada is the largest trading partner of the United States. It's more than a trillion dollars. We are the largest market for 35 states in the United States. We buy more from and we exchange more with the United States than any country in the world, so I think we should celebrate.

The other thing you should be happy to see is that we have seen some of the most historic investments. Think about, for example, Dow Chemical. Dow Chemical has made the largest investment in 125 years of history, or thereabouts, in Fort Saskatchewan in Alberta. If you look at BHP Jansen in Saskatchewan, which was phase one, it was the largest project in BHP's history. Phase two was the second-largest project. That's $21.1 billion that has been invested in Saskatchewan.

Just to finish, Mr. Williams, my point is that I think investors are voting with their feet. Take the fact that you had Honda recently with the largest investment in their history. There must be something good in Canada, sir, because otherwise these people would not put all their money here. I know it's about workers. I know it's about the ecosystem. I know it's about renewable energy, because we're winning.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you, Minister, but the stats simply do not state that. When we look at investment announcements by private businesses, Canada has stayed flat. We talk about our productivity problem. We're not seeing businesses invest in their own companies, while Mexico is up 16% and the U.S. is up 31%. This is a made-in-Canada problem.

Look at companies in Quebec, for instance. We've had losses to Mexico: Bombardier, Gildan Activewear, Sherwood—which actually went to China—Fruit of the Loom, and Velan. All of these companies have offshored. When we look at the carbon tax, and we've talked to companies, they say they're being punished for that. We're just simply offshoring our emissions to other countries. We can look at Mexico, I think, which is exemplary right now. Even if you look at the Mexican peso versus the Canadian dollar, they're gaining on us. The peso is gaining on it.

Sir, I know you went to the White House correspondents' dinner. I think maybe you should have instead gone to the informe presidencial to learn a thing or two. What do we do to catch Mexico in this economic quagmire?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

By the way, I was in Nebraska over the weekend with the governor, Jim Pillen. You may ask him what he thinks about Canada—you may have seen it on social media—and what we have been doing.

Honestly, if you want to talk about Quebec, we landed the largest investment in Quebec's history. Northvolt has decided to invest. That's the largest investment in the province's history since hydroelectricity. Look at Volta, a Korean company that has invested close to $1 billion to do a separator.

In a sense, Mr. Williams, I think the record speaks for itself. I will just tell you that Bloomberg—don't take it from me, because I know you're a man of the world—has now ranked Canada first, ahead of China, for the battery ecosystem for the next 30 years. That's not me. I did not even give them an interview. They came to that conclusion by themselves, but Canada is ahead of China for the next 30 years, according to Bloomberg. We've been winning, sir. We have just been celebrating. We should be looking at celebrating. Seize the moment. Let's celebrate. This is time to celebrate.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

You want to celebrate. I have only so much time, though.

Minister, on October 5, 2023, you said grocery prices would stabilize in “days or weeks”.

Minister, I'm sure you're aware that when Canadians go to the grocery store, beef is up 30%, bread is up 14%, and baby food is up 26%. Grocery prices are staying stubbornly high, when you said that they would be stabilized or get lower.

Minister, when are grocery prices going to come down?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'm fighting every day for consumers, and I'm sure you would if you were in my position, because we know that the.... If you want to help—because people are watching at home—be on my side and push for a grocery code of conduct. Let's bring fairness and transparency.

That's what the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers is asking. I'm still pushing to bring a foreign grocer to this country, because we know that more competition will bring better prices and better choices for consumers, and our reform of competition is the best way to make sure we have more stability in prices in this country. That's what Canadians want. That's what I'm fighting for every day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Minister.

MP Van Bynen, the floor is yours.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, I would like to stay with this theme around competition. In April, the Competition Bureau of Canada published its 2024-25 annual plan. I think it's called “Onwards and Upwards”, and it wants to strengthen competition for Canadians. It involves increasing proactive enforcement and leveraging amendments to the Competition Act to better protect Canadians from anti-competitive activity. Among other objectives, it wants to undertake what they refer to—and I heard you refer to it earlier—as a market study under the revised Competition Act.

Can you expand on that? The reason I'm saying that is that I hear from my constituents. There's concern about market dominance in finance, food, telecom, the tech industry and the petroleum industry, so will this start developing some strategies to improve competition in those areas?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Van Bynen, thank you very much for raising a question that would interest most Canadians watching.

I can tell you that we were one of very few countries in the world that had a competition commissioner with no subpoena power. Our colleagues should listen to that. Imagine.

Basically, before we amended the law, the head of competition in this country could write a letter to a company and ask them to provide information. Then, some would say, “Thanks, but no thanks,” and that was basically the end of it. To me, that was one of the priorities we had, to give enforcement power.

Now, if you do a market study, you have subpoena power. If they say that they don't want to give the information, then we'll seek it through court. That is probably one of the most fundamental things, if we want to have a market study.

I look at Mr. Masse and Monsieur Garon, who are here. When we did the last one on grocery, it was all on a voluntary basis, but if you want Canadians, Parliament and government to have a view of a certain market, you need to be able to compel companies to provide information.

We would probably be the only country in the G7.... I can imagine. I'm a lawyer myself, and having an enforcement agency that knocks on your door and says, “Would you please give me information?”, is not what you need. That's what we changed.

I'll give you an example of other things we did that will go to Mr. Williams' question. It's well known that I've been talking to some foreign grocers to see whether we could bring deep discounters into this country to have more competition. Mr. Van Bynen, one that I met said that they looked at Canada a couple of years ago, but before we changed the law, you could have one of the major grocers with a store within a plaza, and because of the restrictive covenants, you couldn't have a store within five or 10 kilometres. Worse, even if they were to leave, no one could go there, so you would have these food deserts in Canada.

I can tell you, I was with the CEO of one large grocer in the United States. They have the wherewithal of billions of dollars behind them. They said that they had tried to lease 400 to 500 properties in Canada, and no one would lease to them. He said that now that we've changed the law and now that these restrictive covenants are illegal, they're going to be able to look again at the market.

Will I succeed? I don't know. Is it worth the effort? Definitely. Am I going to fight? Yes. That's the type of issue on which, thanks to Parliament, our government, and the vision of my colleagues, we've been able to make changes.

I was saying that, in reforming competition, this is probably the most important dividend we've created for Canada for generations to come, because those are fundamental pillars. Yes, you can attract investment, and you can do this and that, but when you have more choice, you have—usually, and we've seen it everywhere in the world—better prices and more options. That's what we want to see in every sector of our economy.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

That's great. Thank you.

I know we've talked an awful lot about electric vehicles and the EV supply chain, but I'm also interested in other parts of our future and investing in the future.

Can you talk a little more about the critical investments that we're making in science and research and what that means for Canada?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you, again. You seem to focus on the big things.

Yes, definitely. I always say that the science of today is the economy of tomorrow. That's why, in 2016, we made record investments in science, and now you've seen $3.5 billion in the last budget. I'll mention one: $2.4 billion on AI.

Canada is already a world leader. We were the first country in the world to have an AI national strategy. We were the first country in the world, with the United States, to have a voluntary code of conduct. We want to keep that leading position.

Yoshua Bengio is a Canadian who has been recognized by Time magazine as one of the 100 people in the world who have great influence, and he is helping us. I would say to people on the committee that they should listen to his voice on Bill C-27, because he's world renowned. To maintain that capacity of leading, these investments in AI, the $2.4 billion we've announced to have more computing power, and the agreement we recently signed with Nvidia should give confidence to Canadians that we're going to continue to lead.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you.

Mr. Van Bynen, I'm sorry, but that's all the time you had.

It is now over to Mr. Garon for two and a half minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I have a yes or no question for you because I know that's your style. Are you willing to send the committee a written breakdown by province of how much your government has invested in the battery industry?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I believe that information is already public knowledge. What we're able to disclose publicly, we already have, as we did with the Government of Quebec and the Government of Ontario.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I take it, then, that you won't be sending us that information.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

The information that we would happily provide to the committee is already in the public domain. As the committee and Mr. Masse know, the rest of the information is confidential because it's commercial information. We know that Quebec, Ontario and British Columbia have received investments.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you very much.

For my next question, I'd also like a short answer, since you're good at that. When will we see a national aerospace strategy? We've been waiting 20 years now. Whenever we meet with representatives from aerospace firms, they all bring it up. You're going to name every single thing you've done for the aerospace sector, and I appreciate that, but when are we going to get a national aerospace strategy?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

When I met with them—I believe you were with me—we said one would be coming, which is already a major step forward. As you know—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

We've been hearing that for 30 years.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Fair enough, but I haven't been the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry for the past 30 years. Otherwise, I'd be a good bit older. When I was appointed, I focused on the investment side. We can't spend all our time developing strategies. We have to take action as well—that's crucial. I often say that there are windows—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I understand what you're saying, but tell me why all the aerospace companies are asking for the same thing whenever they speak to us. As you know, some of them are in my riding, in Dorval and in Longueuil. Here's what they say: “Investments are great, but without a national aerospace strategy to structure everything in a meaningful way, we're missing the most important piece, because we are not the third-largest aerospace hub in the world anymore.”

Why are they saying that, when you are saying that your focus is on investments so the strategy can wait? When will we get a strategy?