Evidence of meeting #123 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aluminum.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Simon Kennedy  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Mark Schaan  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry

6 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

What I can say is that I have very active discussions with Marc Bédard, the CEO of Lion Electric, and with the Government of Quebec. We have a number of interlocutors on this file. We are first looking at how to ensure the long-term viability of Lion Electric.

As you know, I was part of the first Lion Electric announcement. We are in discussions with the company. The question is, where do we set the bar? There is a fund, but it is limited. If we provide a bigger subsidy, it means fewer buses. We are now in discussions with the Government of Quebec to find out which formula to use.

6 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

I'm sorry, but I have to politely interrupt.

I know that Lion, among others, recently made a public statement. You know what the problem is: 3,000 projects are on hold. That fund has not delivered a single school bus in two years. Of course, we recognize everything you do for Lion and for the industry. You're active on this file. However, Lion Electric cut 150 jobs in November 2023, and another 120 more recently. Half of the orders of Lion Electric, which is a flagship company that will grow, depend on this fund.

Have you spoken to the Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities? Sometimes, when the minister gets involved, things move forward, as you know.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Garon, as I was saying, we are in active discussions with Lion's leadership, with the Government of Quebec and with my colleagues. I know this because I talk to them often. We are now studying the formula with Quebec—that is, what part is Quebec's and how this should be rolled out. I have had discussions with my Quebec City colleagues. We're all working on this. Minister Fitzgibbon and I have been working toward Lion's success from the get-go. We're there.

Now, we have to ensure sustainability. There are still challenges with this fund: The percentage that can be done, the amount available, the number of buses required and how it is divided by province. However, I would need more than five minutes to talk about it.

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

Minister, how is it that a similar program in California makes it possible to release the money for the intermediaries who buy the buses in three months, while in Canada, we can't get the funds released at all? Is that how we make the transition? When a company buys a bus, it doesn't buy it for six months. The bus will run for 15 years.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I would say that it is a little more complex than that. If you spoke to your colleagues in Quebec City, they would tell you how they want to use the portion of the fund that is allocated to the province. There are more elements to this, and I invite you to speak to your counterparts in Quebec.

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

Is it Quebec City's fault?

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

No, never. I am still working with Mr. Legault. It's no one's fault. We are currently looking at how the fund is accessible, how much of it goes to Quebec and how to use it best. It's a question of resource allocation. Discussions are under way with the partners, including Lion Electric, us and Quebec. This is being actively discussed.

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

Let's stop there for a moment. I think you realize that sometimes committees serve to deliver a message. I think it's important to discuss the issue with the Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities. I'm confident that the intentions here are good. In my neck of the woods, there's quite a bit of talk about Lion, and a lot of people are worried about this. That was my way of appealing to you, to get you thinking.

I have a bit of time left.

I imagine your binder there includes a page on copyright reform, since it's in your mandate letter. For years, Quebec's publishing community has been calling for the Copyright Act to be reformed, as promised. Despite being in your mandate letter, those reforms have yet to happen.

Educational institutions are not properly compensating authors. Artificial intelligence, or AI, is a whole other issue. I don't want you to list off everything you've done in the area, because I know it will burn up my time and you're good at that. Bill C-27 raises concerns about copyright. In particular, works that are used by AI systems have to be protected.

When will the committee see a bill containing copyright reforms? If we knew the legislation was forthcoming, perhaps it would motivate us to speed up our study of Bill C-27.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

We are in the process of looking at that with AI and copyright stakeholders, specifically. You're absolutely right that it's something many people are concerned about.

On a broader level, I can assure you that I've met with people in the sector to discuss the issue. I'm also discussing it with my colleague. There is a lot to consider. You have authors, on one hand, and universities, on the other, so we're trying to find a fair and equitable solution that works for everyone.

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

I realize there's a lot of push-and-pull involved, but I want to get back to the real question: Are people working on drafting the bill as we speak? Has the process begun? Are you thinking about it? If you're discussing it with your colleagues, perhaps taking one step forward and one step back, are we going to see an election before we see the bill?

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

We seldom take steps back. I think we are moving forward, but several interests have to be taken into account. If it were easy, it would already be done.

I encourage you to invite university officials as well.

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC

Are you working on a bill right now? Can the committee expect to see a bill?

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

As I said, we are consulting stakeholders and talking to people in the industry. I encourage you to speak with all the players in the industry. I have a good grasp of the situation. We have to work with a range of partners on this. We have to hear everyone's perspective, and we want to find a fair and equitable solution. That's what we are working on.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Minister. At the rate things are going, we need time to finish our study on Bill C-27 before you bring us a new bill.

We now go to Mr. Masse.

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Going to where I left off last time, the southern Ontario federal economic development agency is being cut by 47%. Tell me what's changing there. Forty-seven per cent is the steepest cut of all the agencies by far. There are a bunch of others, so what's happening there?

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I'll turn to the deputy minister because, thanks to your earlier question, we had a bit of time to look.

I'll just say that in southwestern Ontario, like Windsor—Mr. Masse, you would agree with me—the investment we've done with Stellantis and NextStar is generational. A lot of money has been going into the region. Thanks to you and the work we've done together, Windsor is not going to look the same, I would think, for generations because of that.

My point is that there's been a lot of federal money going to Windsor, but more specifically to your question, for the facts and the details on that, I'm happy to leave it the deputy minister to give you a more detailed answer.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Sure. Thank you.

6:10 p.m.

Simon Kennedy Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Mr. Chair, maybe I'll first note that there was a time when all the regional agencies were part of the industry portfolio, but that's changed. That agency is now the responsibility of another minister and deputy, so I wouldn't really be in a position to answer detailed questions.

We did look at this year's planning report from the agency, and it appears to be the end of a COVID emergency relief program, a fairly substantial one, so the budget is kind of returning to its longer-term run rate. That's in the documentation that FedDev has made available publicly, and we think that's what's happened here.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

That's fair enough. I'll try to follow that up as well. I just thought it was in our estimates here through the department. I'm just a bit worried, because tool and die mould making, and others that are sometimes forgotten, require long-term commitments. That's fine. We actually have done really well. We've got the Gordie Howe bridge just about done, an urban park, which I want next to it, and a whole series of things, but it's come with a lot of sweat equity and business case scenarios to prove it's worth it for the rest of the country.

The Canadian Tourism Commission is getting a small raise. The reason I'm asking about this is that since it moved to Vancouver, it's pretty well disappeared from Parliament here. Duty-free stores are being hit hard, and the traffic for American visitation is significantly down on the land borders. Air traffic is really way up, but land border traffic is way down. They moved to more international attempts to increase visitation, and that was at the expense of an American plan, so duty-free is suffering. Others are suffering.

Are there any thoughts of getting the Canadian Tourism Commission more active in its promotions to the United States, especially given that land border crossings are significantly down, not just in my region but in Niagara Falls and other places across the country? Tourism is being hit real hard from that. Again, airlines are way up, but car traffic is way down.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I know.

I'll just say—the deputy may want to add to that—that tourism is one of the key economic sectors in many regions. I come from rural Canada. This is key.

To your point, we always need to make sure. It's an industry I believe very much in, and we need to support it. We've done that in the past. We'll continue to, but more specifically to your question, I may ask the deputy to give you the detailed numbers.

6:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

Mr. Chair, I might suggest that we come back with a written response. I'd be very happy to do that. I don't have enough data myself to be able to answer that appropriately.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

That's fine. I'd rather do it that way anyway. I'm looking for suggestions on how to improve it. It's really hurting small and medium-sized businesses in particular. Again, air traffic's through the roof, but land border traffic is significantly down.

Quite frankly, when we moved it to Vancouver, I predicted it would disappear from this place in terms of importance. I might be on the record as asking the only question in this session about the Canadian Tourism Commission. That's how poorly it's now represented.

The other part of the estimates I want to ask about is the Competition Bureau. I was really happy to see they published their annual business plan. One of the things I've been working on is fraud prevention, and they're getting more into that.

I couldn't find it in the estimates myself, but is the budget being increased for the Competition Bureau? Thank goodness their role is changing to a positive, and needs more changing. Are they getting more resources with this budget?

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thanks to this committee's support and the government's, we have made the largest reform in competition law, as you know, since its creation. I'm looking prior to my career as minister, but I would say enforcement is key. You can have any laws on the books, but at the end of the day.... I think the most significant thing we did in 2023 was to provide a significant means to the commissioner. You even see public statements about him saying that was key. You can change the law, but what we need now is the means in order to achieve the mission we've given them, the market studies and all that.

I remember in 2023 it was tens of millions we gave to the agency. I don't have all the records in front of me, but I would think this is one of the largest investments we've done in the competition commissioner. Now, with the reform that we've done on competition, I think the nation will be much better equipped now to tackle competition issues.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Again, could we follow up with more details? This file is huge. There's no file like the industry file on the Hill here, so I don't expect you to have all the details, but these are specifics I'm going after. We had the first fraud study here.

If I can follow up with this, though, is there any thought in terms of the use of regulations? With cellphones right now, it's unbelievable the amount of fraud that comes through your personal device. You pay for the personal device. You pay for the connection to it. The telcos still continually do a terrible job of blocking. The CRTC has put in some new policies, but they've not been effective. Even with the most recent cheque distribution for the carbon tax there was a fraud scam that came through as well.

Do you have any thoughts in terms of bringing more accountability to the telcos with regard to their allowance, and participation, quite frankly, in keeping the status quo, which is the abuse of people, especially seniors, persons with disabilities, and those not familiar with it, on fraud?

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I'd say a couple of things on that.

Certainly, we're always trying to find ways to promote consumers' interests, but you will be happy that in the last budget there was an issue around making sure there's no switching fee—the famous $50 that we were seeing.

The other thing, I think, that is going to make one of the most significant differences is informing consumers that there might be a cheaper plan they would be able to choose. I think information is key. I'll give you my personal experience. People will say, the information is there, but most consumers don't check their plan on a weekly basis. The fact that they would do that, and now there would be proactive information and disclosure that there will be a cheaper plan or another option for consumers, I think means we're going—