Evidence of meeting #6 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was battery.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
One moment, Mr. Fillmore, there is a point of order.
Mr. Fast, go ahead.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Mr. Chair, I believe it's within your power to focus the comments and the interventions of our members on the witnesses at hand. This is serious business. We heard this may be the greatest economic opportunity we've ever seen as a country. I don't believe this is the place for political harangues from my colleague Mr. Fillmore. If he wants to do that, he can do that outside of this committee. Right now we have serious witnesses at this table who should be asked serious questions.
I leave it to you, Mr. Chair. I trust you to act wisely, but remember relevance is important here. That's one of the things you need to call this committee to focus on: the relevance of the comments and the questions.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you, Mr. Fast.
I will leave it to members to use their time as they see fit. I do this with all parties.
Mr. Fillmore, you can resume, as long as it pertains to the study at hand. You have three minutes.
Liberal
Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate the intervention from Mr. Fast. I agree that this is a very serious matter, and I won't go any further on that line. This is very serious and it's a matter of science as well. Science is based on fact, and I wanted to make sure the record reflected the facts in this case.
With my remaining time, I'd like to come back to Professor Dahn, if I could.
I was enjoying the conversation with Mr. Kram about lithium carbonate versus lithium hydroxide. I was wondering about the energy density question. In your world, what do you think is the future of battery storage? Is it, in fact, the high-density batteries, or is it the lower-density batteries?
Professor, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
My view is maybe a little bit orthogonal to that of many other scientists and researchers. My view is that the future is in the longest-lived batteries possible, so that you minimize the need for recycling. You install a battery in an energy storage facility and it lasts 40 or 50 years, not 10 years. If you install a battery in a vehicle, it can be used for vehicle-to-grid with a couple of charge cycles per day while the car is parked, and you still get 15 years out of the vehicle. At the end of that time, you can repurpose the battery for something else.
Those batteries may not be the highest energy density batteries that you could possibly make, but they'll still be able to drive a car 400 kilometres or so. I think this is the way things should go. We should be making batteries that are the most useful for society, not a battery that makes a sexy car go 600 kilometres.
That's my opinion.
Liberal
Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS
Okay.
For example, the wall packs we're going to be seeing more of, which will contribute to smart grid energy sharing, might be in this longer term.
Professor, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
Yes. That's what you want.
Liberal
Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS
I wish I had a little bit more time for Mr. Gratton.
In terms of the gap between where we are in extraction of lithium in Canada and where we need to get to, do you have any thoughts or direction? I have about 40 seconds left.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
We have one lithium mine in Canada, so we have a long way to go. There are a lot of lithium deposits across the country. We need to attract the capital and start developing them.
Lithium is just one of the many materials that go into a battery. We're much stronger on some of the other elements that go into batteries. We also need to capitalize on that advantage.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you Mr. Gratton and Mr. Fillmore.
I will now give the floor to Sébastien Lemire for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question is for Mr. Benoit La Salle, whom I invited to attend this committee as a witness eight or nine months ago, to perform a whistleblower role by making it clear to us just how urgent it is to invest in strategic critical minerals.
Mr. La Salle, now that we are beginning to see some interest in this sector in Canada, how do you feel about the federal government's efforts, and its capacity to fund the mining industry for the development strategic critical minerals?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Aya Gold and Silver, As an Individual
It's nonexistent.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Aya Gold and Silver, As an Individual
Precisely what I said. I'd like to draw your attention to the following. The race is real. As you saw last week, Serbia withdrew the Rio Tinto permit for one of the largest lithium mines in the world. It gave environmental reasons as a justification, but everyone knows that it is a dramatic strategic repositioning. Serbia has just done it and several other countries are in the process of doing so. When transactions were underway in Quebec, I told the politicians that Australia would never agree to sell a lithium mine to Canadian undertakings.
The federal government needs to introduce a policy to support all of these areas. Quebec's policy is fine. Quebec is willing to electrify and provide assistance, but it forgot the minerals aspect. We can't let minerals go and assume that we will be integrated into the market. I have been to China often and can tell you that all our graphite is currently being sold to the Chinese. They would be willing to purchase our graphite mine tomorrow. Why? Because the Chinese don't want to sell us anodes or cathodes. Nor do they want to sell us battery packs. They want to sell us electric vehicles for $18,000 or $20,000, as if they were Bic ballpoint pens. They have told us this clearly.
We sell our raw materials to the people who make anodes for Tesla and Volkswagen. What the Chinese want is to stop selling anodes and cathodes because that's not where they will be making their money. They want to sell cars. They have stated this clearly. They are trying to have us sign very long term contracts to gain control of raw materials, just as they did for uranium in Australia, where they completely shut down the uranium market and tried to buy up everything. Why would they do that? Because they know that one day this mineral will be critical, that they will have it and that we will not. What does that mean for Canada? That we will lose our automobile industry in Ontario and lose Lion Electric if it does not start producing anodes and cathodes. Don't be misled into thinking that Tesla makes batteries.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you very much, Mr. La Salle.
Unfortunately, that's all the time we have. I know it goes by quickly.
Mr. Masse, It's over to you now for two and a half minutes.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to have Ms. Lilly answer my previous question, but before I do so, I want to give some context about the witness here. I'm a New Democrat, but also under the Harper administration my right to repair bill got done; banning of microbeads got done; the Gordie Howe bridge got done; my genocide recognition of Srebrenica was passed in the House of Commons, and it's now in the Canadian Museum for Human Rights; my international bridge and tunnel work got done; and invasive carp banning, actually for evisceration at the border, got done. That's just to name a few things. If you had anything to do with any of those things, I want to thank you for that.
I'd like to turn over the next couple of minutes for you to answer the question with regard to whether we're having more transparency or improvements in the Investment Canada Act over the last few years, because I'd like to see some improvements in that.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Associate Professor, Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual
I'd like to clarify that I'm here in a non-partisan capacity. I'm a published author in the area of national security reviews for critical minerals, so that is why I'm here today, as a professor of international trade, respected in my own right.
On the issue of transparency, I support transparency, of course. I think the government should be as transparent as it can be while safeguarding national security.
On the extent to which the national security process has become more open, I couldn't say in an objective way, because I simply haven't followed it systematically. I think what is really essential for government.... In order to maintain the ability to keep aspects of the national security review confidential—because there are times when I do think there are details that it is important remain confidential—I think that governments need to maintain trust and ensure that they're implementing their own due diligence and following their own guidelines.
I think one of the concerns in this particular case—I did review the testimony where you asked the minister those questions—is that some very basic details weren't being answered. I also think that the fact that this did not go to a full national security review—it was stopped at the initial screening stage—meant that some questions were raised about the extent to which the government's full due diligence was followed. When those questions arise, trust in institutions starts to erode. As trust erodes, that creates problems with public trust as well.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Yes, it is.
Thank you very much, Professor Lilly and MP Masse.
I now turn to Mr. Généreux.
Mr. Généreux, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would also like to thank the witnesses here with us.
Mr. La Salle, where do Tesla's batteries come from?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Aya Gold and Silver, As an Individual
They come from Panasonic, but it depends on the agreements. In Japan, they come from Panasonic and Panasonic in Japan buys the anode from the Chinese company.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
In your presentation earlier, you mentioned that selling lithium was totally unacceptable. Why?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Aya Gold and Silver, As an Individual
It's not making any waves today, and is not creating any problems because we don't manufacture batteries in Quebec or Canada.
There are 240 battery manufacturing plants being built at the moment, but there are none in Canada. I would suggest that you visit the Benchmark Mineral Intelligence site; it's a think tank on batteries and it explains why they are being built.
Earlier on, I believe it was Ms. Houde who said that demand was unbelievable and very strong. Every battery plant needs a graphite mine and just about one lithium mine. Benchmark has published some very nice charts on this.