Evidence of meeting #65 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was minerals.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Megan Nichols  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
Kimberly Lavoie  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Mining Policy and Critical Minerals, Department of Natural Resources
Sheryl Groeneweg  Director General, Advanced Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy Branch, Department of Industry
Dany Drouin  Director General, Plastics and Waste Management Directorate, Department of the Environment
Patrick Hum  Senior Director, Advanced Manufacturing and Materials Industries Directorate, Department of Industry

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you for your answer.

In the 1980s, we had a big problem with sulphuric acid and acid rain. The federal government played an important role in building a sulphuric acid plant.

In the budget presented yesterday, I am particularly interested in the 30 per cent refundable tax credit for investments in new machinery and new equipment used for manufacturing or transforming key clean technologies and extracting, transforming or recycling the principal critical minerals.

Could Glencore/Horne Foundry receive that tax credit?

Would it be eligible in connection with its operations?

5:25 p.m.

Director General, Advanced Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy Branch, Department of Industry

Sheryl Groeneweg

Yes, we noted that in the budget yesterday. I would have to defer the answer to your question to the tax policy folks at the Department of Finance, who are in a much better place to respond to that than we are.

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

With pleasure, but I think my speaking time is up.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

I'm quite generous, Mr. Lemire. You can continue.

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

You mentioned that the Horne Foundry was unique in North America.

What can be done to enhance the value of an asset like that?

How is it part of the solution, if we really want to bank on the circular economy?

What role can the Horne Foundry play in this development process, particularly for Quebec and Canada?

5:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Mining Policy and Critical Minerals, Department of Natural Resources

Kimberly Lavoie

That's a very good point. I do think that industry has a huge role to play in this work, and Glencore is no exception to that. They are a key tenant in the minerals industry in Canada, both in Quebec and in Ontario, in Sudbury in particular.

I think that if we all roll up our sleeves and look at the art of the possible with respect to embracing new technologies that can clean up the emissions that are coming out of that factory, that refinery can actually be part of the solution on a go-forward basis.

As we are looking to mine more copper, which we need for everything.... For every light we have, the electricity runs through copper. If we don't have that smelter capacity, then we actually have no choice but to export that raw material and not have the value chain in Canada. In order to do that, we need to work with industry to help them be able to reduce their emissions, be able to achieve the targets they need to achieve so that people can have long, happy lives as well as good-paying jobs, and be able to achieve our shared objectives.

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you.

If it is possible, we would like to have more information about the data you requested on the environmental aspect this summer. As well, our press review indicates that a study has been done. If it were possible for you to submit that to the committee, we would be grateful.

Thank you.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

Mr. Masse, the floor is yours.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

If I pop out, it's because I'm going to get my phone, which broke, and then my glasses broke. These are 15 years old, so I can't see you. If I'm squinting at you, it's not because I don't believe you.

Mr. Vis had a good question with regard to the exportation of plastics and so forth. It was really embarrassing, I think, for a lot of Canadians when we saw what took place in the Philippines. I want to follow up on that.

Are you making assurances here for us today that, if it goes to the United States...? I'd never thought about what Mr. Vis just brought up, which is that we could do indirectly what we can't supposedly do directly now. I believe that—I'm just going by memory now because I dealt with this file—we didn't sign all the international agreements on plastic dumping into developing countries and other countries.

Can you perhaps give me an update as to those two things? I think there was a side agreement—it starts with a B—to stop some of that, and I'm not sure if Canada signed that. Can you also talk about what Mr. Vis raised with regard to sending it to the United States, maybe to Mexico or some other place—it doesn't matter where—to end up somewhere else that we can't track?

5:25 p.m.

Director General, Plastics and Waste Management Directorate, Department of the Environment

Dany Drouin

There's a lot in the question, and it goes back to the international regime on the movement of waste. At the core of it is the Basel Convention, which is an international agreement that Canada signed and ratified. The cornerstone of trade is prior and informed consent, so nobody can send any waste to a country that has not provided its consent first. In doing so, the principle behind it is that the country can assert that it can manage the waste in an environmentally sound manner: i.e., it can be dealt with properly from an environment perspective.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

There are certain countries that I don't trust with their human rights, let alone whether they could follow through with toxic chemicals and plastics.

One of my first motions in the House of Commons here was on environmental contaminants and human health. I come from an area that's been subjected to a lot of toxicity in its environment due to the auto industry in the Ohio valley and so forth.

Is there a list that we track in terms of...? Could we find out where any of this waste has gone and where it ended up in terms of plastics and recyclables that we sent out?

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Plastics and Waste Management Directorate, Department of the Environment

Dany Drouin

The system is not totally opaque. I talked about illegal waste. I want to be clear here that we have a regulation in place. We have an international convention. We have enforcement activities, and we have compliance, but cases of illegal waste export sometimes occur, and we take enforcement activity.

Our waste, generally speaking, goes to the OECD countries, as well as the United States. The United States is not part of the Basel Convention, so we have a bilateral agreement with them, which is allowed by the convention, to continue to exchange waste with countries that are not part of the—

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Do we audit that later on, when we send it to the United States? Is there follow-up? That gives me concern. That sounds a little different, quite frankly, from what was presented earlier in terms of a nuance there.

You're right. I couldn't remember, but I knew it started with a B. It is the Basel agreement, and I knew the United States didn't sign on to it.

Have we done an audit to find out whether or not our junk is ending up somewhere else?

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Plastics and Waste Management Directorate, Department of the Environment

Dany Drouin

We work with other countries, the World Customs Organization and the CBSA. We've participated in an operation called Demeter. It's a coordinated, targeted enforcement operation with maybe 18 or 20 countries where enforcement officers would target containers, open containers and look at them. In some ways, that has yielded really important results in terms of finding illegal waste and informing us about some industries that sometimes try to mislabel a shipment. There are some spot checks.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Okay, but there's no real audit. This gives me a lot to think about and follow up on.

Quite frankly, I know of one country that was accepting Canada's waste and whose leader bragged about throwing somebody out of a helicopter. We have more Canadian waste going there. Later on, they complained about it.

What I'm looking for is this: What would the best process be for Parliament to further follow up, if some of us felt there was still a bit of weakness in our ability to track what we're actually sending overseas, which can often end up in the oceans or in other places?

I have a long history with microbeads. We moved on that. I give the Conservatives credit for that. It was an NDP motion—thank you, NDP—but it was Stephen Harper who enacted the motion. It could have been dismissed, but it was actually implemented by Stephen Harper, at that time. I give them credit for that.

How can we move on this with a bit more accountability?

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Plastics and Waste Management Directorate, Department of the Environment

Dany Drouin

Currently, we just launched consultations to amend our regulations. It's publicly available. It's the beginning of the consultation process. It will lead to amending our regulations to do two things. One of these is increasing the stringency of the controls on e-waste—something that was of interest here. We dealt with the plastics as part of the previous amendment to regulations.

The other one we're consulting on is whether Canada should accept the so-called Basel ban amendment, which would prohibit the export of hazardous waste to developing countries for final disposal. That is something currently out in the public domain for consultations.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I know I'm out of time, Mr. Chair.

Could you send that information to our committee, as well? If there is any other information out there with regard to tracking our waste, it would be of interest, I think, to many people.

March 29th, 2023 / 5:35 p.m.

Director General, Plastics and Waste Management Directorate, Department of the Environment

Dany Drouin

I can provide the information through Stats Canada.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

Mr. Gaheer, the floor is yours.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for their contributions, so far, to the committee.

My questions are for the Department of Industry.

Could you expand on the barriers to recycling? You mentioned it could use a lot of energy or have a high carbon footprint. What are the other barriers?

5:35 p.m.

Director General, Advanced Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy Branch, Department of Industry

Sheryl Groeneweg

Thank you so much for that question. I'll attempt to answer your question by taking some real examples from a sectoral basis.

I'll take steel, for example. Steel is a highly recyclable material. We're very fortunate in Canada to have a very strong and advanced steel manufacturing sector. Steel is decarbonized by using scrap, so the recycling becomes part of a business opportunity and a market share opportunity going down that path. It's heavy. There are transportation considerations in acquiring steel scrap. There's likely going to be a global constraint on scrap availability as the world's steel production goes towards scrap metal usage. In some ways, that sector is contending with some countries that are putting in place export barriers to scrap, for example, from their waste streams.

Let's take plastics as an example. There are high energy costs to process plastics for recycling. I think there are technological barriers in terms of, for example, how to use plastics in a food context, where you must have certain standards for use in food packaging. The world is starting to solve that problem but is not quite there. It's about filtering the plastics that are good for that and filtering out those that are not, and then ensuring that there's the chemical process involved.

In Canada, is the plastics recycling stream sufficiently oriented towards feedstocks for any endeavour that would use recycled feedstocks to transform plastic into other manufactured products? That could have barriers, for example, on a province-to-province basis. Again, as I said in my opening remarks, the provinces tackle that in unique ways, and they have features they have built up within their systems.

There are means by which we could use, for example, by-products from the forestry sector as an input fuel, as an energy resource. Biochar is a good example of that. On the cost input to using biochar as a new energy resource that could go into a sector that needs high heat values to transform streel, for example, the cost of the input is not such that it's competitive with the alternative that might be currently used. Often, there's a cost price consideration; that dynamic means the market hasn't really picked up that signal yet.

Then, I would say, there's scale. Scale becomes a feature whereby unless the input sector has reached a sufficient scale—and therefore has a cost consideration as to how viable it would be as an input or a long supply chain as a consideration—the market failure means that the private sector, the market, is not necessarily readily picking that up on its own. Market failures are very important to recognize, and then we can figure out how to address them. That's sometimes why you see governments coming into play to incentivize, either through regulation changes or through funding mechanisms, to add a sweetener to businesses that are changing into a new business model.

Those are a few examples, but honestly, on a sector-by-sector basis, it's so particular.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

Thank you for your answer. I know we're talking about so many different industries, and I appreciate the different examples you're giving.

According to OECD data, Canada recycled 14% of e-waste in 2016. That's in line with the U.S., but it's much lower than our European counterparts like Germany, France and Sweden, which are at higher than 50%. Have we improved since 2016?

5:40 p.m.

Director General, Advanced Manufacturing and Industrial Strategy Branch, Department of Industry

Sheryl Groeneweg

Thanks for that question.

I don't know the answer. We would have to follow up with some data, if we can get it, as an after-submission to your question.

Certainly, there are jurisdictions that are moving ahead very aggressively. In part, there's experimentation happening in terms of the technology approaches to dealing with that.

I'd be happy to follow up with an answer to that as best we can.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

Thank you.

Chair, do I have more time?