Evidence of meeting #73 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was egypt.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nathan Brown  Professor, Political Science, George Washington University, As an Individual
Gary Schellenberger  Perth—Wellington, CPC

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you, Mr. Jacob.

Mr. Sweet informs me that he didn't have a further question, so I wonder if the committee would indulge me in asking one. I'm anxious to follow up on the issue of gender relations.

One of the things this committee has been looking at, not specifically with regard to Egypt, but with regard to a number of other states in Africa and Asia, has been the issue of the treatment of women.

Was I right in understanding what you mentioned, that both the Salafis and the Freedom and Justice Party had the same reservation about international standards being applied here?

1:55 p.m.

Professor, Political Science, George Washington University, As an Individual

Prof. Nathan Brown

Yes, I think those for the Salafis would be stronger and less diplomatically worded.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Okay.

These are not the only two parties in Egypt. Is this a universal thing where there's a consensus among the significant parties or is there actually a meaningful distinction in their views on this issue?

1:55 p.m.

Professor, Political Science, George Washington University, As an Individual

Prof. Nathan Brown

Specifically on gender relations, I would say there would be a spectrum. There is a spectrum. It is fundamentally a socially conservative society in ways that we would understand that to be socially conservative. It is one that understands most people would see men and women as having fundamentally different roles in the society.

However, there is a very broad spectrum. I would say that the Salafis would be most insistent on literal interpretation and application of their understanding of religious teachings. The brotherhood tends to be a little more flexible. It wants to move society in a direction that is consistent with those, but it is a little bit more freewheeling in its interpretations and a little bit more patient in its application.

You still have alongside of that, I would say, parts of Egyptian society in which, for instance, women have played an extremely strong and public role. If you turn on Egyptian broadcasting, for instance, you'll see plenty of women. If you look at the Egyptian diplomatic corps, for instance, it has a history of being open to women. There has been a strong history of an Egyptian feminist movement. It was domestic pressure from Egyptian women that led to the extension of the vote to women in the 1950s.

I think you see a very broad spectrum. There are some Egyptian groups who, rather than being suspicious of those international human rights instruments, especially on gender, latch onto them and say essentially “we have to join the world”. There are international standards which are very much applicable to Egyptian society.

When President Morsi made that statement at the UN General Assembly meeting, my guess is that his statement would have resonated for the majority of Egyptians, but would have set a strong and powerful and intellectually active minority on edge.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Okay, that's actually quite helpful.

You also mentioned the generational distinction that exists. Maybe this is not possible for you to say, but is there a clear preference among generations as to which party they favour, or is it the case that simply the cleavages within society are not generationally defined when it comes to partisan analysis?

I'm also wondering about attitudes towards gender roles, whether there is a generation gap in attitudes or whether, again, there is not a cleavage on those lines.

2 p.m.

Professor, Political Science, George Washington University, As an Individual

Prof. Nathan Brown

Yes, that's very hard for me to say, because my contacts are with the restricted part of Egyptian society, essentially, the middle class or intellectuals, generally in Cairo. I think there is a generational change that I can see in Egyptian society, but it has less to do with political ideology and less to do even with gender relations and more to do with sort of social comportment and behaviour.

The current generation is simply less deferential. You have a society that has a very strong sense, I think, of hierarchy in terms of age. That is beginning to break down in ways that older Egyptians find a little disorienting. Simply, the very strong sense in which where you are in this Egyptian social pyramid depends partly on how old you are is fraying, and that's a remarkable development.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

In some ways that sounds like developments we've heard of in a number of other countries over the decades, including our own.

Thank you very much, Professor. Unfortunately, we are out of time. I do have some other questions I feel I could ask you, but we have to get from this building where the committee meeting is happening over to our main parliament building, and so I'll have to wrap things up. Thank you very much for taking the time to make yourself available. You've been very informative indeed.

2 p.m.

Professor, Political Science, George Washington University, As an Individual

Prof. Nathan Brown

Thank you very much for having me.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

It's been a pleasure.

Mr. Sweet.

2 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

I just wanted to ask about next Thursday. Will we be having a meeting next Thursday? Next Thursday is a Friday in the House, as far as the schedule goes.

2 p.m.

Perth—Wellington, CPC

Gary Schellenberger

There is no meeting on Thursday.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Is that a vote for no meeting on Thursday?

2 p.m.

Perth—Wellington, CPC

Gary Schellenberger

There's no meeting on Thursday.

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Could I ask you to do that in the form of a motion that we don't have a meeting on Thursday?

2 p.m.

Perth—Wellington, CPC

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

All right, let's just quickly find out if you have support.

2 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

I suspect that a lot of members may not be around, and that's why I asked the question. If that's the feeling, then there is probably consensus.

Are you okay with that, Mr. Jacob?

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

I think that's a consensus, so we don't have a meeting. I just wanted to confirm that.

(Motion agreed to)

2 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Also, do we have more witnesses on the Copts, or is this now a conclusion of our evidence intake on the Coptic Christians issue?

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Unless the committee feels we need more, this is it.

2 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Will we have a business meeting soon with a new draft of the Coptic Christian report that would also include the motion that I had made regarding some wording in regard to Parliament being dissolved?

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Sorry, Mr. Sweet. We're going to go in camera.

2 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Okay.

[Proceedings continue in camera]