Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 16th, 2013

[Gary Schellenberger]

You mentioned earlier the garment industry, and we mentioned, I think, that we were involved primarily in garment and mining. I think, and this is just coming from me, that you can do more from within than you can from without. Again, in a free trade agreement, if we were there and we have some free trade, do you feel there might be a chance that we might be able to affect some of the law, some of the infrastructure that might be there in Honduras?

[Sister Elsie Monge]

Like you say, if you're there, what would be the presence? If it's not just product, would you be trying to better the conditions of the majority?

[Gary Schellenberger]

That's what I look at. I look at our industry in some developing countries. We'd go in and train people, give them some experience, give them a job. In a lot of these places, if you don't have a job.... I was just in a school the other day, a grade 12 class, and a young lad said to me, “What are you doing for us at my age?” I said that what we're trying to do is to make sure that he has a job when he gets out of school. This I think is very important and I would hope that maybe through a free trade agreement we might be able to affect some of those countries, not just rape and pillage, as has gone on in previous centuries.

Thank you.

[Sister Elsie Monge]

To me that seems like a different approach. I do believe training in all.... As you said, setting up industry, giving good wages, helping the people, empowering the people to be more efficient or better trained, and of course, creating jobs are very positive things.

When I hear about trade agreements, they tend to focus on commerce and interchange of products, which at this point is not done on an equal basis.

[Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Scott, please.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Elsie, if you don't mind me referring you to by your first name, this is Craig Scott.

[Sister Elsie Monge]

Oh, hi.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Como te va?

[Sister Elsie Monge]

It's good to hear your voice.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

You too. I do need to go on record in the committee saying I was a member of the commission until being elected.

Thank you so much for being here with us. Elsie, I just wanted to ask a couple of quick questions to fill in some gaps. One is in the truth commission's work. Did you or the commission as a whole see evidence of any particular human rights violations or concerns for lack of protection in the LGBT community, maybe particularly the transgendered people?

[Sister Elsie Monge]

Yes. I think there has been persecution of the gay and lesbian community. Yes, that's considered a crime in Honduras.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

In terms of the actual conditions, do you feel things have in any sense improved or not improved since the coup or since the election of President Lobo?

[Sister Elsie Monge]

No, I don't see an improvement in the repression of anybody, in this case the gay and lesbian community, or anyone who does not agree with the coup and its continuation.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Elsie, I was wondering if you could elaborate on a couple of things.

Michael Kergin, who is a member of the other commission, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, said something that does line up with what you said. You talked about the Bajo Aguán landowners being interconnected with broader economic elites and how that explains both their interests and their power. Michael Kergin did talk a lot—a bit, I'm overstating it—about the very closely guarded economic power of a small number of families in Honduras and how those families, along with other economic actors, really do control things from the media down to industry and land holdings.

For the record, I'm wondering whether you'd agree with that summary from Mr. Kergin. What implications do you think the connection between economic power and influence have for our hopes of getting to that newer constitutional order that you have said is probably essential?

[Sister Elsie Monge]

I agree that the crux of the problem is that economic power, the economic elite running the country. At the same time, they have to see the repercussions on the majority of the people. That's the question I ask myself. How long can you keep making the poor poorer? They should see that it's to the detriment of the whole country.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you, Elsie. To pick up on something my colleagues Joyce Murray and Ms. Grewal were questioning you about, it was mentioned that Canada is the second leading investor in Honduras. I think we're also the second leading development assistance or cooperation contributor as well. We do have excellent programs that have begun to move into areas of the justice system with Canadian assistance.

In my own experience—and this is speaking frankly, not necessarily as having been a commissioner—is that on the ground Canada appeared to be rather reticent to use either the language or the analytical frame of reference of human rights when talking about development assistance and development cooperation. It was much more pragmatic, talking about, say, water systems or food security, but it really, really avoided ideas of human rights. The language of economic, social, and cultural rights isn't really part of how development assistance is talked about in Honduras.

Now this might have been a strategic thing or it might reflect a broader trend in our development assistance programs, but can you tell us what your view is on whether we can afford to be talking about human rights without economic, social, and cultural rights as part of the frame?

[Sister Elsie Monge]

The thing is, in the western hemisphere it has taken a long time to view economic, social, and cultural issues as rights. The north refers to them as needs, but it's the push from the southern countries that has given the importance of treating them as rights. A need is something that you can answer to or not, but a right you have to answer to.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you, Elsie.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much.

We have just a moment left. I wonder if I might just pose a question. We've been trying to locate some of the written materials from your commission, Sister Elsie. At a previous meeting, I asked Mr. Scott if he had a copy of the report and I know the answer was no. That's why I'm asking you if you have any documents in English or French that we can use. Do you have any copies?

[Sister Elsie Monge]

The report was published last year in October, and now it's being translated into English. We're having a hard time in this process. In Spanish it is available. Would it be of any use to you in Spanish?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Yes, it would. I think it's already online in Spanish, is it not?

[Sister Elsie Monge]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I don't suppose you have at least the summary done in English, do you?

[Sister Elsie Monge]

It's being translated, but I can write to my colleagues saying that maybe the first thing to do would be to translate the summary, because the other is bigger.