Evidence of meeting #77 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was honduras.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Colleagues, we are no longer suspended. We are back in session, and we are public now.
Karen Spring is here to assist us with carrying on our study into the human rights situation in Honduras. Karen Spring is the coordinator for Central America for Rights Action.
Ms. Spring, I invite you to begin your testimony, and thanks for your patience.
Karen Spring Coordinator, Central America, Rights Action
Mr. Chair, thank you very much for inviting me to speak before you today.
As was mentioned, my name is Karen Spring, and I lived and worked in Honduras for three years with the non-governmental organization called Rights Action, which is a non-governmental organization based in the United States and Canada.
I'm returning to Honduras in May to continue my work and to conduct my thesis research as a master's in public health graduate student.
As has been mentioned by many speakers who have spoken to you, the human rights situation in Honduras has significantly deteriorated since the coup d'état on June 28, 2009. Honduras is known as the murder capital of the world because it is the country with the highest number of homicides at 91 per 100,000 people.
The coup in many ways is not surprising to the people who have worked for a long time in human rights and the alternative truth commission, which you've heard about, that was conducted by the President Lobo government. The first 60 pages of that report outline the historical role the military and state forces have played in Honduras and their relationship with the economic and political interests of approximately 10 families that have dominated the political and economic environment in Honduras for many decades.
At any point in time in the history of Honduras, any attempts to challenge those interests have historically been suppressed by the military and state forces. This is a little bit of an oversimplification, but for reasons of time, I'm just going to leave it at that.
Since the coup in June 2009, there has been a significant increase in opposition to the interests of the economic and political elite in Honduras. This has been formed under the banner of the National Popular Resistance Front, which is the name of the social movement that formed following the coup d'état in 2009. They are putting forward a presidential candidate under the political party called LIBRE, or the Freedom and Refoundation Party.
The National Popular Resistance Front is a large group of different sectors of Honduran society that have traditionally been excluded from the political and economic process in Honduras. They have been very vocal and in direct opposition to what the regime that has taken power since the coup has been pushing forward in the national congress. Of the laws and many policies they are opposing, a couple to mention now are the mining law, which was recently approved, and the temporary labour law, which is now really important in the apparel and textile factories. I mention those two laws because they are very specific to Canada's interests in Honduras.
Since the coup, one of the leading human rights organizations, COFADEH, which in English is the Committee of Relatives of the Detained and Disappeared in Honduras, has received many formal human rights complaints and testimonies of human rights violations. COFADEH is an organization that has played a really important role since the coup, because since the coup there has been a complete breakdown and lack of trust between Honduran society and many state institutions, including the judiciary, the police, and the military. This is one of the reasons—this mistrust—that many human rights groups have refused for a long period of time to recognize the government that is now in power, as well as participate in the truth and reconciliation commission that took place after the coup d'état.
This human rights organization, COFADEH, has documented over 206 politically motivated assassinations of members of the National Popular Resistance Front, or the social movement, that was formed after the coup in the last three years. These 206 assassinations do not include the 96 peasant farmers in the Aguán valley, in the northern part of Honduras, who have been assassinated as well in the last three years due to a significant land conflict between three wealthy land owners and thousands of peasant farmer families.
COFADEH attributes some of these 206 assassinations to the re-emergence of death squads, which are groups of often masked or heavily armed individuals, linked and coordinated with state security forces, that carry out very targeted killings, torture, and kidnapping of targeted individuals.
COFADEH has noted similarities between these death squads that are ongoing and currently in operation in Honduras with those of the 1980s. They've noted that many of the same people who are involved in the military, police, and state institutions currently are the same individuals that were part of the military and state forces in the 1980s.
An example of this is the current director of the national police. His name is Juan Carlos Bonilla. He's head of the national police. The former head of internal affairs of the national police, someone who worked inside the structures of the police in Honduras, has formally and publicly accused the national director of the police of participating in death squads against youth and so-called gang members in the early 2000s. This is just one example of many people who are still involved, who had been involved previously and are still involved in the military and police forces in Honduras.
Within this context, there's a significant amount of insecurity, fear, and violence, something which the committee has already heard a lot about. There are human rights violations that are ongoing and haven't stopped since the coup. This is the context in which Canada is considering entering the country—well, Canada is already present there—and signing a free trade agreement with the country.
I'm particularly concerned about this because of the human rights violations being committed by the security forces, as I've noted. Canada is actively funding the police and security forces in Honduras. An example of this is that in the last draft of the Honduran mining law that I saw, the Canadian mining companies that are operating in Honduras are required to pay 2% of the value of their exports to the police as part of a security tax that has now been created since the coup.
Another example of how we're funding the police and these ongoing human rights violations is the senior vice-president of corporate affairs for Gildan's mentioning to the committee last week that Gildan itself is providing money to the police force in the communities in which it operates.
Now that I've talked a little bit about context, I'm going to talk a little bit more about my research in Honduras as a graduate student.
I'm conducting research on occupational health in sweatshops or textile factories, and I'm specifically working with women who work in these factories. I'm working alongside a women's human rights group that is based in Choloma, a city where Gildan, which is a Canadian company, has a few of its factories.
The human rights group that I'm working with has documented the serious occupational and horrible labour conditions in which these women are working. The most concerning condition that I have noted in my own work is the way that work shifts in these factories are set up. In Gildan's factories, for example, women have a work shift that's four by four. What this means is that women work four days on and then they have four days off. When they're on and they're working, they are required to work eleven and a half hours per day.
The vice-president of corporate affairs of Gildan mentioned in his testimony that they pay over the minimum wage. I think it's important to note that it is possible for Honduran sweatshop workers to make over the minimum wage in Honduras, but workers are not paid by the hour. They're actually paid by a production quota that they're supposed to achieve. These production quotas are already very high and actually are very difficult to meet. If women are unable to meet them, they're required to come in after the four days or basically work overtime for which they're not compensated. Even if they achieve their production quota in the sweatshop factories, the maximum they can make is $90 a week. So it's not a minimum wage in the sense they're paid by the hour, it's that they're required to meet really extreme production quotas.
Another point that was mentioned by the vice-president of corporate affairs for Gildan in his testimony is that Gildan provides medical workers or medical professionals inside the factories, and it does. There are doctors who are present in the factories, but based on my work and a lot of the human rights concerns that have been brought forward to this women's group, these doctors and medical professionals often are not trusted by the workers, and the workers don't really feel like they're receiving good advice from them.
I say this as there are many complaints of health problems. Specifically, there are a lot of reports of musculoskeletal disorders that are basically inflammation or pain in the wrist, shoulders, arms, and back. These have been linked to the occupational conditions within these factories.
When women in the factories complain to the doctors in the factories about these concerns, the doctors often provide medication; whereas, if the women go to the national social security institute, which is the national pension and social insurance system in Honduras, the doctors have diagnosed the women who have come forward with these concerns as having permanent disabilities from musculoskeletal disorders that are caused by the conditions of their work.
The complaints that this human rights organization has received regarding working conditions in factories have been taken to the Honduran government and to the company. They have complained before Gildan and other companies that also have very difficult conditions in their factories. They've complained before the Ministry of Labor and Social Security. They have complained before the Fair Labor Association. They've also complained before the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. The Honduran state has provided no response, and there has been no investigation into these health concerns or the conditions in the factories.
The institutional structures in Honduras exist for Hondurans to go and formally denounce or complain about human rights violations, but there is very much a culture of impunity, and there's really no rule of law to mediate these concerns. The absence of rule of law in Honduras has basically enabled death squads and mass human rights violations. Basically, even when people go forward to complain about human rights violations, there is no investigation and no legal follow-up of their concerns.
It is within that context that Canada is considering a free trade agreement and considering expanding its investments in Honduras while contributing to funding a police force that has been documented to be corrupt. It is contributing to these human rights violations. Canadian investments will also contribute to the poor working conditions and occupational concerns within factories. Within that context, Canada is considering expanding its investment, and it will be contributing to greater human rights violations.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Is that the end of your statement? Thank you.
Before we go to questions from the members of the committee, I have a couple of things I want to follow up on myself.
Regarding the law on policing, which requires that 2% of mine revenues be put towards the police force, you can't do it right now, but would you be able to draw to the attention of our analysts, and therefore the rest of the committee, what that law is so we can actually find the law and look at it? That would be very helpful so we could get a better understanding of that. We'll be contacting you for that follow-up. That's the first thing.
Second, you mentioned a couple of powerful landowning families. I think you said that actually thousands of farmers were in conflict with them. I am wondering if there is any kind of map of landholdings in rural Honduras. I gather there are a few large families that own the majority of the land. We always tend to talk about this in the context of Honduras and other countries without any actual concrete map to look at. Do you know of the existence of any such thing?
Coordinator, Central America, Rights Action
Do you mean a physical map of Honduras?
Conservative
Coordinator, Central America, Rights Action
I think the question of who owns the actual pieces of property is what's generating the land conflicts, so ownership is being contested by the campesino or peasant farmer communities and cooperatives that existed in the 1990s. They are saying that the land was illegally taken from them by three large landowners. Within that region, which is on the northern coast of Honduras, each different peasant farmer movement has different land claims, so it adds to the complexity of the situation in the sense that there isn't one specific claim to the land. There are actually many different ones and many different circumstances that led to the land conflict and basically the landownership being contested.
There are physical maps, but I've spent a significant amount of time in that region, and it's very complex and very difficult to map out clearly where exactly all the different pieces of land are.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
All right, that answers the questions as to why we never see maps of these things. They're actually difficult to put together.
Okay, let's go to our questioners.
We start with Mr. Sweet, and if you don't mind, I'd like to keep each round of questions and answers to five minutes.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I will try to do that, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much, Ms. Spring, for coming.
My colleague Ms. Grewal last week put this question to Mr. Iliopoulos:
While Honduras nominally subscribes to the International Labour Organization's standards, in many countries they have serious issues with enforcement and implementation. To what extent is the labour standards situation compliant with ILO standards, both at Gildan and other factories in that country?
Mr. Iliopoulos answered like this:
We have a very strict code of conduct that's based on ILO principles. We're accredited by the Fair Labor Association, which is a strict NGO that accredits social compliance programs, and based in Washington, D.C. We conduct regular audits, including internal audits, external audits, third-party independent audits, of our social compliance program on a regular basis every year in each of our facilities. That's something that's been, as I said, both from our perspective and third-party perspectives, customers'.... The apparel industry, specifically in Honduras, is really held accountable to a higher standard....
It goes on.
Are you saying by your testimony that Mr. Iliopoulos misled the committee when he made those statements about his organization?
Coordinator, Central America, Rights Action
Well, I think that if you examine the Honduran labour code, the Honduran labour code says that from the standard work shifts that workers are required to work, the maximum is actually eight hours a day, Monday to Friday, and they're allowed to work four hours on Saturdays. If they work Sundays, the companies are supposed to pay overtime. So the four-by-four work shifts, as I mentioned, are actually in violation of the Honduran labour code. They're in violation of the International Labour Organization's principles as well, although I'm not as familiar with those principles myself.
For me, it would come back to the ability for Honduran institutions to mediate those concerns and to consider that these are violations of the Honduran labour code and then actually do something about it and change the behaviours of the companies that are violating it, if Gildan is violating it.
There has been significant concerns that these formal complaints are not being received, and if they are being received, there's no follow up and there's no rule of law to ensure that companies follow these labour codes.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Along with Mr. Iliopoulos, we also had someone who has an extraordinary CV, Mr. Adam Blackwell, who is with the OAS now. We asked both witnesses about the free trade agreement. Mr. Iliopoulos, of course, of Gildan would have a commercial interest, no question, but Mr. Blackwell answered me by saying:
Having worked to help negotiate free trade agreements, I was going to say that it's not just about trade. There are many components of these agreements that help establish the rule of law and level playing fields, including common standards, such as FIPAs, foreign investment protection agreements....
He goes on as well.
You have a problem with the free trade agreement. Why would that be when Adam Blackwell would be in favour of it because it would actually enhance security?
Coordinator, Central America, Rights Action
I'm not sure how it would necessarily enhance security. I think that what has happened is since the coup, the levels of homicides have skyrocketed. So I'm not entirely sure why Canadian companies would want to be in this environment, in the murder capital of the world, basically, doing business.
I don't think that signing a free trade agreement with a country with such dramatic and high levels of human rights violations is the answer to remedying the human rights situation. I think there needs to be some sort of ability to mediate these concerns prior to signing any free trade agreement with Honduras so that there is actually engagement with Honduran society, and that's not happening at all. When the human rights violations are committed and people from Honduras go to the state institutions to say that their rights are being violated, that their work shifts are in violation of the Honduran labour code, there's actually no process to follow up with that. For Canada to sign a free trade agreement with Honduras, I think if we're concerned about human rights, we need to make sure there's some sort of rule of law or to contribute to an international body that can help mediate these conflicts, and the lack of rule of law in Honduras, prior to signing and promoting our economic interests in the country.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I think that's why the Organization of American States is actually involved, for that very reason.
I'm curious. When you began your answer, you mentioned about Gildan being there, and Canadian companies. It sounded to us like it was a pretty good news story, that they were actually providing 20,000 jobs to people who in an economy like that of Honduras, wouldn't have that much access to employment. But now you're saying Canadian companies shouldn't be there at all.
Coordinator, Central America, Rights Action
Well, the women's group I work with say they actually welcome employment, but they ask for employment with dignity. That's sort of what their response is. They're asking for employment where they're able to go and formally complain about their concerns and be received and have it remediated. That hasn't happened at all, because there is no rule of law in Honduras.
These women want jobs, but they want jobs where they can go and there's some sort of remedy to their situations, to their health problems, and to the poor working conditions.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Are they complaining to the labour organizations or to the government, when you say there are complaints?
Conservative
Conservative
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
I want to welcome our guest here today. It's certainly appreciated.
You're right, and Mr. Sweet is right. In the testimony from Gildan that he's read back here, for example, the Fair Labor Association that's supposedly giving them such high marks, it's pretty much like-minded corporations that have banded together, similar to the ILO, the International Labour Organization, but it's almost like the fox going after the chickens while they're judging them, so it's really concerning.
From a philosophical point of view, and we get into the free trade agreement and the OAS, Mr. Blackwell was talking about if there was a free trade agreement, it would benefit the people there.
One of the problems we in the official opposition have had with the trade agreements that have been signed so far by this government is the fact that they haven't included human rights and they haven't included labour rights in the body of the agreement. They're side agreements and they're not enforceable in law. There's no sense of accountability. If we're going to go into trade in a legislative way, we need to have enforceable human rights standards in there to ensure.... I'll give you an example. You may well be aware of this.
Mexico has some of the best environmental laws on earth, except they don't enforce them. We have a situation in that country where it's very clear that anybody who stands up to their government in any way is putting their life at risk. You've said it yourself: Honduras is the murder capital of the world. I'd like you to expand a little, but more particularly in the case of Gildan, in the case of the situation as it's perceived there of Canadian companies.
Canadian extractive companies in some parts of the world are being questioned about working with the death squads or the paramilitaries, and in some cases hiring paramilitaries as their security. If you could comment on that aspect of the relationship of Canadian companies, I'd appreciate it.
Coordinator, Central America, Rights Action
One thing that Porfirio Lobo's government has done since the coup is because of the economic crisis that hit Honduras after the coup and because of the situation of the global economy, they've actually increased the amount of security on the streets of Honduras. They've given the military police powers on the streets, so police are now being accompanied by the Honduran military on the streets. This has not at all translated into any level of security for Honduras or for Hondurans as the homicide rate continues to increase.
While they've increased military in the streets and they've increased police presence in the streets, the main idea of the government is to promote foreign investment and to bring foreign investment to Honduras as a way to remedy the economic situation. But with homicide rates skyrocketing and with increased police and military on the streets, this has not translated into something that has created a better environment for Hondurans.
When companies come in, and I've worked extensively in areas where there has been extractive industries, mining-affected communities, the communities in the Aguán valley that are struggling for land, and with women sweatshop workers, there are a lot of complaints about these companies. Within this environment of so much insecurity and violence, the workers completely mistrust all the institutions that are there to protect them, so there's nowhere for them to go to complain about their issues.
The main point I want to make is that there cannot be more investment until there's a functioning justice system and there's rule of law.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
I agree. I'd like to read into the record a few of the members of the board of directors of the Fair Labor Association: Russell Brands, Fruit of the Loom, New Balance Athletic Shoe Inc., Hanesbrands Inc., adidas Group. We'll provide a copy of the full board to the clerk so that members can see it. As I was indicating before, they're like-minded people in the sense that they work in the textile industry and footwear industry, organizations that are around the world and have had significant problems.
In that this is a committee of the Parliament of Canada, what do you see as the most important role this committee can play in relation to Canada's relationship with Honduras?
Coordinator, Central America, Rights Action
Before I answer that question, I forgot to mention about the Fair Labor Association. The women who work in Gildan's factories, or that have formally complained about the conditions, they have complained before the Fair Labor Association. In response to the complaint, the Fair Labor Association did an analysis of the program that Greg Chamandy of Gildan has in place to deal with labour conditions, but there was no engagement with the workers in any way. Workers were not involved in that evaluation. So in February of this year, the human rights organization that represents the workers formally complained about how the Fair Labor Association had done their evaluation and their results about what was going on in the factories.
In terms of your question, the Honduras elections are approaching in November. I think things are going to get dramatically worse between now and then because of the polarization of Honduran society and because of the significant social movement that is proposing a candidate for the presidency.
What Canada needs to do is to absolutely stop funding the police and any state forces. Canadian companies are actively, as we speak, funding the police. The companies were mentioned by Mr. Blackwell, and almost everyone who has spoken in front of the committee has said that the police force and the military are committing a lot of human rights violations. That's the very reason they're doing a security reform. Canada absolutely has to stop funding a state institution that is committing these violations.
Another thing I think Canada should push for in Honduras is some sort of independent international body that could help mediate these concerns and push forward investigations of some of the key human rights cases. The truth commission put forward that they should have a presence from the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. In response to the truth commission, they put in a representative from the office of the high commissioner, but it's just a representative, not an office. They have a very limited mandate and they are not able to do many things.
I would propose that Canada work towards something like they have in Guatemala, which is called CICIG, the International Commission against Impunity in Guatemala. This is a special prosecutor, an international body with the ability to investigate crimes. They've had a lot of success in Guatemala. It's not a perfect process, but it's a way of monitoring what is happening in the investigations and the judiciary.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
I'm going to have to be a little more ruthless in enforcing the time. It was answers that wound up running long but—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
You're welcome. It was unintentional in both cases.
Ms. Grewal, you're next.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Ms. Spring, for your time and your presentation.
According to a story in the The New York Times last week, the Honduran congress suspended the attorney general and his assistant and replaced them with a temporary oversight committee. The three-person commission will have almost 60 days to analyze why the prosecutor's office has been unable to solve so many criminal cases there. They will generate a plan to improve the trustworthiness of the institution.
What is your opinion on this latest development? Does it provide any hope for a better justice system there?