Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on July 20th, 2020

[Mehmet Tohti]

We have documentation of 125,000 pages of personal information during the interviews and surveys we did two years ago. I dispatched them to community members in Turkey. There are heartbreaking stories. We heard their testimonies, how many members of their families were lost, disappeared or were killed or interned in concentration camps. Those people were left without any support.

Most importantly, there isn't any venue for them to seek any assistance. For example, the UNHCR office closed in Turkey. The Turkish interior minister controls the immigration office. When they seek asylum, they're afraid if they are rejected because of the political game between Turkey and China. Now, as you know, Turkey is derailing its position from NATO and the western alliance. It is becoming much closer to Russia and China, and is receiving financial assistance from China. They have become a political chip to play, to victimize. For that reason, there might be 20,000, 30,000, but realistically, at least 2,300 to 2,400 families with multiple children. They're very vulnerable. Can we offer help to them? That is my concern.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We're going to go to a short round right now. We're going to afford each party three minutes.

We're going to start with Ms. Khalid, for three minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Tohti and Dr. Turpie, for your testimony today.

Mr. Tohti, I just want to say that last year I was at MuslimFest in Mississauga. I just want to thank you and the Uighur community here in Canada for showcasing the beauty of the culture and traditions. I understand your frustrations, but you are absolutely having an impact. You are absolutely raising your voice and you're preserving that culture. I thank you for that.

I will go to Dr. Turpie really quickly.

Dr. Turpie, in December 2019, a statement was made by representatives of the Chinese government in the Xinjiang province that people had been released or that they had graduated from these re-education camps. I'm hoping that you can tell us what that was all about.

Then also, we heard reports of Han Chinese who are settling in Xinjiang. We also heard that Uighur communities are being moved out of that province. Can you explain what this movement of people is all about and whether or not people are being allowed, ultimately, to leave these re-education centres? Thank you.

[Dr. Irene Turpie]

You have to understand that the information we get from this province is very, very limited. Some of the press reports that we have depend on some of the academics we hear from, and they depend on personal reports and personal witnesses such as you've heard today.

It's my understanding that people are being billeted in the homes of the Uighurs. Presumably, again, they're taking over their homes. They're taking over their jobs, as the Uighur men, in particular, are in these detention re-education centres.

I cannot imagine what qualifications they need to graduate from these re-education centres. Presumably they have admitted their allegiance to the Chinese Communist Party. Presumably they have learned to speak some Mandarin Chinese. Presumably they have denied, perhaps, their religion. I don't think that any of it is good, for sure, to graduate from one of these places.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Tohti, would you have some comments on that?

[Mehmet Tohti]

In my opening, I just gave as examples three Canadians. I talked about the family members of three Canadians. None of them, none of their family members, have been released from the concentration camps. Arkin Kurban lives in Montreal, and 76 of his extended family members are still in concentration camps; 38 of my relatives are still in concentration camps. Another lady, Nuriam Abla, has relatives in concentration camps. You can talk with Uighur Canadians from coast to coast. No one reported that their family members have been released from the concentration camps.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We'll now move to Mr. Chiu for three minutes.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for speaking to this committee here.

Mr. Tohti, as Han Chinese, I can tell you that I am not proud of what the CCP did, has done and is doing in the name of China. I and many, many other Canadians are very sympathetic to your people's plight. We're working very hard to stop it and undo some of the damage it has done.

In my riding, there is a “highway to heaven”, a large, long stretch of road that aligns religious institutions and faith gathering places. Among them, three are classified in the Muslim faith. I've been trying to bring the suffering of the Uighur people to their practitioners' attention. Literally, these have fallen on deaf ears. Why is that the case? How do you suggest to counter that to make people more aware and be on your side?

[Mehmet Tohti]

Thank you for the question. Thank you for your support, first of all.

As I said, we don't have a large population; from coast to coast to coast there are 1,500 Uighurs, not families. All of them are new immigrants. They have some language problems. They are barely getting by and are working to support their families. We don't have that many activists. We can't just, wherever we are, do advocacy work and explain in a public gathering with public speakers. That is one issue. I'm running from place to place. This is one element.

It is part of our community. We cannot catch up at every event in every community. We are doing our best just to spread the word in Canada, just to educate our fellow Canadian friends, citizens across the country, and work with different faith groups.

I went to your riding a number of times. There is one mosque. The Islamic Institute of Toronto, I think, is in your riding as well. I went there for a conference. I spoke with the leading voices there.

We are constantly working, but at the same time it is really difficult to get rid of people's preconceptions on China or the Chinese government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We'll now move to Monsieur Simard for three minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tohti, I always had the impression that one of the driving forces behind political action was outrage. When we are outraged by a situation, we are more inclined to take action. After your testimony, I feel outraged. Outrage is good, but it's even better when it's followed by concrete action.

You may find my question trite. You just said that there are not enough activists to inform people of the problematic situation being experienced by the Uyghurs. As an opposition legislator, but also as a citizen, what could I do, in concrete terms, to help you? What tangible steps or strategies could I take to help inform the public about what the Uyghurs are going through?

[Mehmet Tohti]

Thank you.

I think a number of our parliamentarians have on their personal websites a Uighur window, or an instant update on the situation of the Uighurs, and they post it on their own parliamentary or personal website. This is one way. Honourable David Kilgour, he has on his website one Uighur window, and every day he is updating it and spreading the news. Maybe you can do this.

Second, during a town hall meeting with your own constituents in your own riding you can talk about this. This is about our future. I try to emphasize this. I have a son, just two weeks old. My son is going to grow up here in Canada. He's going to live in this world. If China becomes a global boss with this ambitious plan, what kind of world will our future generations live in? It is not about the Uighurs' situation or tragedy. It is about all of us.

We would like to have a peaceful world for our next generation. We have the rule of law, freedom and basic democratic values, and we have to preserve those. China is a challenge to our values. You have to look at the issue from a broader perspective and educate your ridings and the people around you. Just talk about this issue. Maybe this is the best way to start.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have 20 seconds to follow up.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

What explains the vehemence of the Chinese government's actions against the Uyghurs? Does the plan for emancipation or political autonomy partly explain these actions?

[Mehmet Tohti]

China wants to eliminate the Uighurs and to take our ancestral land. Uighurs want to keep our land and to keep our national identity. This is the struggle. If you ask all the Uighurs abroad, they want to go for an independent state. There is no way to live together with the people, because many Chinese people—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you for that.

We're going to move to Ms. McPherson for three minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

I am going to ask two questions and get both of you to respond to them, if you wouldn't mind. The first is, compared to other western nations, how would you describe Canada's response to the Government of China's actions against the Uighur population? Are there examples from the international community that you'd like us to look at quite closely, international examples of where things have gone right and things that we could emulate?

If you could both touch on that, just to finish off today, that would be wonderful.

[Mehmet Tohti]

Dr. Turpie, go ahead.

[Dr. Irene Turpie]

Okay.

You know what? Gandhi said that every journey begins with one small step. I think we've given you lots of ideas today about things you can do. I certainly hope you'll consider Bill S-204.

Other countries, I think Sweden is one and the U.K. is one.... I think even the United States has put sanctions and things into action. There's no reason Canada shouldn't do that.

It would be wonderful if Canada had the courage to call this a genocide, which it did not do for the Rohingya. It was left to a little African country to do that. I think we could stand up for that.

In particular, please do something about the forced organ harvesting. I'm a physician. I took an oath that I would never do harm. I wouldn't harm patients. If I stay silent on this, if we stay silent on this, we are doing harm. Please let's do something about forced organ harvesting.

[Mehmet Tohti]

One thing Canada has done right in the international arena, just like the UN office in Geneva, it has frequently joined other western allies to raise the Uighur issue against the Chinese government.

We talk about concrete action. We lack concrete action. We can follow the U.K. and the United States.

Most importantly, as I said, Canada has a lot of soft power to exercise. If China wants to eradicate Uighurs, why don't you help the Uighurs? If China wants to eradicate our culture, why don't we build a Uighur institute? It is important to understand the experience of Uighurs to understand China.

In using that soft power we could do so many things. The Magnitsky bill.... The organ harvesting and forced labour.... It is our obligation. We have to do this, not for Uighurs, but for ourselves. Otherwise, we are complicit in genocide.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That concludes our third panel.

I want to thank you, Dr. Turpie, for your advocacy, and you, Mr. Tohti, for your heartfelt testimony, for sharing your knowledge and your personal experience. We as a committee commend you for your courage and bravery.

[Mehmet Tohti]

I live in Mississauga, by the way. We've met a number of times.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes. Viva Mississauga.

We're going to suspend now for 30 minutes to have the room cleaned to COVID-19 standards.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Welcome back, everybody.

We've all come to learn that technology is never easy. As we've said, it's quite a bumpy road. We are trying to get one of our witnesses online, and we're having some trouble with that.

To everybody who can hear and see us, welcome. This is the House of Commons Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Today's witnesses are appearing by video conference. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

Should any technical challenges arise, and I don't say that lightly, in relation to interpretation, for example, or should a problem with your audio arise, please advise the chair immediately. The technical team will work to resolve them.

Consecutive Kazakh interpretation will be provided by Gani Stambekov via Zoom. Translation is consecutive because of interpreter availability and technology considerations. There needs to be six booths for a consecutive third language, and because of physical distancing, it is only possible to have four booths. When asking questions, please pause to allow for interpretation time. We're trying to hold the maximum amount of speaking time to about two minutes before the consecutive interpretation then starts by Gani via Zoom. Thank you for that.

Our fourth panel will be going until 5:45 p.m. today. Then I understand we have consensus from all members that we will go in camera for the last 15 minutes.

On that note, I'd like to welcome our witnesses in the order they'll be making their opening statements. We have Mr. Chris MacLeod, lawyer and founding partner, Cambridge LLP.

Welcome, Mr. MacLeod.

We have Ms. Kamila Talendibaevai, Uighur rights activist. We are working to make sure that Kamila can come online.

We have as an individual Ms. Jewher Ilham, author and human rights activist.

As well, we have as an individual Ms. Sayragul Sauytbay, East Turkic minority activist and recipient of the 2020 International Women of Courage Award.

I apologize for my mispronunciation of your names. You will be able to share with us the correct pronunciation when you have an opportunity to speak.

We will begin with Mr. MacLeod. If we can get Ms. Talendibaevai online, they will be sharing their time.

You have six minutes, please, Mr. MacLeod.