Evidence of meeting #4 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was china.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
It was going to be shared with Mr. MacLeod and Mr. MacLeod took up those six minutes.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Yes, but I would look to the committee to see if there is consensus on that and I would suggest we hear her testimony.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
I see consensus from committee members, so we want to hear from Kamila. Hopefully the sound and everything works.
Clerk, we're going to try right now, so hopefully Kamila comes on.
We can't hear Kamila as of yet. My apologies, we still don't—
5 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Maybe I'll take the last 30 seconds, but if at some point we get it working, let's revert back to hearing from....
5 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Mr. MacLeod, certainly it would be important to me that the Canadian government and our ambassador are as engaged and seized with the cases of dual nationals detained in China—people like Mr. Celil, Fan Wei and other dual nationals—as they are with other cases, such as the Kovrig, Spavor and Schellenberg cases, that don't involve dual nationals. This is important because although China regards these kinds of cases differently, Canada of course should not regard these cases as being in any way different. Could you speak to that in the time left?
5:05 p.m.
Lawyer, Founding Partner, Cambrige LLP, As an Individual
I could not agree with you more. Any Canadian citizen detained needs to be a Canadian we look after.
To be clear, Huseyin Celil, I would argue, is not a dual national. He is a Canadian citizen and Canadian citizen alone. As part of the Chinese constitution citizenship act, when you obtain citizenship of another country, which he did to be Canadian, you renounce your Chinese citizenship.
However, your point is well made, and I could not agree with you more. Any Canadian—
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you.
Now we'll move to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for seven minutes.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all the witnesses for being here and for their testimony. What they have said is not easy for us parliamentarians to hear, but it does not compare with what it must be like to experience it. Now, we have to make sure that your presence and your testimony have not been in vain and that the Canadian government takes concrete action.
Ms. Sauytbay, you told us that the people in the camp where you worked were between the ages of 15 and 80. Do you know what happens to Uyghur children whose parents are imprisoned in those camps?
5:05 p.m.
East Turkistan Minority Activist, Recipient of the 2020 International Women of Courage Award, As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Kazakh, interpreted as follows:]
I would like to answer your question. There were 13-year-old children detained at these concentration camps. They didn't divide them based on whether they were kids or adults. The kids had the same level of torture as the adults. For example, a 13-year-old child was detained in a concentration camp because of the false claim that he contacted Kazakhstan and had some connection in Kazakhstan. That was the reason he was sent to the concentration camp, and he absolutely had the same level of torture as adults in the concentration camps.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you.
I have another question, Ms. Sauytbay. I would like to know how Uyghur families who are not imprisoned in these camps live. Are they oppressed, are they threatened? What is life like for the Uyghurs who are not imprisoned in camps?
5:05 p.m.
East Turkistan Minority Activist, Recipient of the 2020 International Women of Courage Award, As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Kazakh, interpreted as follows:]
For the people who are imprisoned in concentration camps, as she said before, in all the prison cells, everywhere, there were constant cameras, CCTV cameras.
For the families who lived outside and hadn't yet gone to the concentration camps, the Chinese government divided all families into three different categories. The first is the dangerous family category. The second one is medium-dangerous, middle-dangerous. The third one is not dangerous, safe. The safe-category families were ethnic Chinese, Han.
The first two categories, dangerous and middle-dangerous or medium-dangerous, were ethnic Kazakh, Uighurs, Tartars and Uzbeks, the native people of East Turkestan. All people, families and parts of families who lived outside the concentration camps will eventually go. They will be sent to concentration camps as well. It's just a matter of the time, the question of time.
The Chinese government's documents show that all of them, 100% of dangerous and medium-dangerous families, will be sent eventually to concentration camps. They didn't send them all because they don't have enough places to place them, but it's just a matter of time. The mayor of East Turkestan, Chen Quanguo, makes it scary by pushing people who live outside the concentration camps.
If you would like to go from one village to another just to visit your relatives, you have to go through seven or eight different departments, and you have to get their permission just to leave your house or to leave your village. Also, all your phones, texts and everything are 100% controlled by the government.
In general, all families, all people,100%, live in censorship. It's one big prison.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Ms. Ilham, thank you for your testimony.
In your opinion, could the introduction of Chinese technologies in North America and Europe compromise the ability of activists like you to act by exposing them to reprisals from China?
5:10 p.m.
Author, Human Rights Activist, As an Individual
I'm sorry; I can't hear the English translation.
5:15 p.m.
The Clerk
Excuse me, Ms. Ilham. On the bottom of your screen, where you see a globe, click on the interpretation icon and select “English”.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Can you hear me? Do you have the interpretation while I am talking to you?
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Great. I am delighted.
I will be brief. In your opinion, could the introduction of Chinese technologies in North America and Europe compromise the ability of activists like you to act by exposing them to reprisals from China?
5:15 p.m.
Author, Human Rights Activist, As an Individual
I definitely think the technology surveillance in China has intervened...most of the people in the world. What do I mean by that?
My laptop, my cellphone, have been constantly monitored, I believe, by the Chinese government. I was invited to a Uighur wedding a few years ago. Because our conversation was monitored, the Chinese police knew that I was going to attend this wedding through our conversation on our cellphones. The newlywed couple were threatened that they should not invite people like me to their wedding.
Also, my and my family's conversations have long been monitored, including through my laptop. The camera would turn on multiple times. The mouse would move by itself frequently. Also, whenever I check the IP address of who has visited my email, I can that see it is from a Chinese IP. I believe this is happening not only to me; it's happening to many other people who are living in the United States and Canada.