Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on July 21st, 2020

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Those are then the screens and export controls in place. I'm just digging further into the supply of components. For instance, with a company like Immervision that supplies component parts for Hikvision cameras, do you think as well that we should seek to limit investments in companies that are supplying components that are then used by companies that are supplying technology as part of this repression?

[Amy Lehr]

Elise may want to follow up. I would just be strategic. The U.S. is trying to focus on particular technologies that are really vital and maybe where U.S. companies play an important role in providing them. It may not be feasible to block every single component that could possibly be used by Hikvision, but what are the ones it would hurt?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

I suppose that aside from legal blocking anybody watching this or listening to this should make every effort to not be investing in components because there's what we can do legally, but then there's also individual responsibility to try to avoid these kinds of investments.

Dr. Anderson, did you want to comment on this further?

[Dr. Elise Anderson]

I think Ms. Lehr put it very pertinently.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you. I have another question for you then.

What we're seeing in some parts of China, for instance with the Christian community, is efforts to co-opt religious practice and control it. The Chinese state says, “Okay, you can have your churches but you have to take down the crosses and replace them with images of Xi Jinping.” I wonder if we see any of this kind of co-opting happening in the Muslim context, or is it just kind of a straight out destruction effort.

[Dr. Elise Anderson]

My organization, the Uyghur Human Rights Project, has documented the actual physical destruction of a number of mosques and other holy sites over the last few years since this most recent campaign of atrocities began.

The state has removed stars and crescents from the tops of mosques. It has removed important signage. It has bulldozed some mosques and replaced them with new structures. It has turned cemeteries into parking lots, and so forth. We are seeing destruction that is similar in scale across the whole of Uighur society.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Mr. Genuis, you have 30 seconds.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Lehr, you mentioned import data, and I think we should go back and look at what's available on the Canadian side. However, is there an opportunity for us to share import data more effectively among like-minded countries, to benefit from the data that, for instance, the United States is gathering and to have a coordinated response as we track what's in our supply chains?

[Amy Lehr]

That would be very helpful. It's not easy to track global supply chains. We've found basically that we're able to understand what's coming into the U.S., at least directly, but we have no idea what's going on with Europe, and I don't believe we currently have access to data for Canada. However, maybe we just didn't try to buy it.

I also believe some stuff is transshipped to Canada through the U.S., so you could at least maybe see that, but yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Ms. Vandenbeld, you have five minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much to all the witnesses.

I'll start with Ambassador Saint-Jacques.

I noted you said in your statement that if we are to act, we need to be in good company, that we should be working with like-minded countries such as the Five Eyes.

Do you have suggestions as to how we can help lead and mobilize that type of effort multilaterally? For instance, we recently saw that even New Zealand didn't sign a statement on Hong Kong that we did with our other Five Eyes partners. Is there a way this can be done?

The flip side of that same question is the concern you raised that if countries move by themselves, they then become the warning, to warn off other countries, so it needs to be done in conjunction. How do we actually do that?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

There are efforts that need to be made to sensitize all countries that in fact we are all in the same boat and we have a lot at stake here. You may have heard this notion that in fact it's China that is changing us more than we are changing China, and I firmly believe this is what is happening.

In the case of Canada, if you look at the engagement strategy pursued by the federal government in the last year and a half since the arrests of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, China has succeeded in forcing Canada to mute its voice. We have expressed very mild comments or criticism on what's happening in Xinjiang and what China is doing in Hong Kong or in the South China Sea.

That's why I was saying that we have to make more efforts to try to reinforce the multilateral system. That applies not only to international trade, but also to human rights, because what we are seeing now is a gradual erosion. China is very active and has been very successful with its belt and road initiative, which some of you have referred to as the “silk road”. They are providing loans and forcing countries to avoid criticizing China.

I think, again, we have a lot at stake. It's a question of using evidence such as we have heard today to tell others we cannot remain quiet on what's happening in Xinjiang. Let's discuss seriously what measures we can take together that would force China to think twice.

The Chinese leadership is very concerned about the image of China, although under Xi Jinping you are seeing a China that is a lot more aggressive, arrogant and assertive. Still, they are concerned. They need the world, because 19% of their GDP comes from international trade. Again, the message to them should be that you have to change your ways and you have to stop acting like a bully; otherwise, we won't have trust in you and we will restrict contacts.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Lehr, you had a number of recommendations at the end of your statement. You gave them very quickly, and I'm wondering if you want to take this time to elaborate on some of those.

[Amy Lehr]

I did touch on them in some of my answers to questions in order to get them in. I'm sorry; I thought I had a little more time than I did for my statement.

One of my suggestions, because I know there's a Canadian version of the Global Magnitsky Act—it's called GloMag in the U.S.—is that you think about how that could be applied to not only CCP officials involved in abuses but also potentially to companies and their officers in China. It's an approach called “network sanctions”. A lot of us think it's really how you can make sanctions effective.

I also thought that it would be helpful to maintain and update public watch-lists of companies, particularly Chinese companies, that are known to use XUAR forced labour or are suspected of doing so. If you look at our report from October in 2019, we outline how we think you could create that.

Again, the idea of having seizures of products produced by forced labour, including Xinjiang forced labour, would create, I think, the motivation for companies to get on top of this. You could think about government procurement practices too. That's one that I'd like the U.S. government to think about more as well. Where do you procure your stuff? Is it coming from Xinjiang? That's something the government itself has control over. Is it affected by forced labour?

Most of all, I think, you can do what you want in forced labour in terms of affecting company behaviour, but how do you work with allies? How do we have a multilateral or at least a multi-faceted approach to this so that it really starts to have the impact that we need to have? The U.S. has been doing some things on its own, often, and it obviously hasn't led to the results anyone wanted. We really need you all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. Lehr.

We'll move to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe for five minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like the subcommittee to benefit from your diplomatic expertise, Mr. Saint-Jacques.

I'm not sure whether you saw the letter written by a Chinese diplomat that appeared in La Presse yesterday. It was about Hong Kong and the new security law, which also relates to Uighurs. It's disturbing. I suspect that, by speaking publicly, he was trying to change the western media's discourse on China.

To your knowledge, have any Chinese officials made public statements in other western media? In your experience, does that mean the diplomatic pressure on China is starting to be felt?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

I think the diplomatic pressure is really mounting.

You may have heard the term wolf warriors, which refers to the much more aggressive strategies being used by Chinese diplomats. We've seen it in Canada, with former Chinese ambassador Lu Shaye criticizing Prime Minister Trudeau and Ms. Freeland when she was Minister of Foreign Affairs. It's a much more aggressive type of diplomacy.

As for Chen Xueming's letter published in La Presse, an excellent response was prepared today and it contradicts the claims in the letter. Mr. Xueming's letter is full of falsehoods, of course. No real consultations on the law ever took place in Hong Kong. Opponents aren't allowed to express their points of view.

The unfortunate thing in all this is that it's happening in the United States, as well. The publication China Daily has taken out advertising supplements in The Washington Post and other major U.S. dailies. The Chinese are taking advantage of the freedom of speech that exists in our societies, something that would be impossible for our diplomats in China to do. They couldn't have an editorial or opinion piece published in a Chinese newspaper. Chinese diplomats are abusing the system in that regard.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Still on the topic of diplomacy, Great Britain has banned Huawei from participating in its 5G infrastructure. Do you think it will be possible to do the same here? Would such a decision have a diplomatic or other impact?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

The federal government is ultimately going to have to make a decision on that. On the weekend, La Presse editorialist Alexandre Sirois wrote a piece stating that Canada could follow in the footsteps of New Zealand, which, while not formally banning Huawei products outright, is individually barring companies from using Huawei equipment.

Regardless, the trust has been lost. My view on the subject has changed. A few years ago, I thought we could do business with Huawei. Now, however, given all we know about what goes on in China, we can't risk vulnerabilities in our infrastructure, so we shouldn't allow China to contribute to the development of our 5G technology here, in Canada.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Anderson, I'm going to use the little time I have left to ask you a question.

From everything the subcommittee has heard during its study, we've learned that a cultural genocide has occurred, not just a genocide. We already had the evidence. The Chinese government is adamant about assimilating the local populations, mainly, the Han and Uighur populations and other minority groups in Xinjiang.

Do you have a sense of what's happening with Uighur artists and culture in Xinjiang?

[Dr. Elise Anderson]

I thank you for that question.

Over the last few years, I have watched from afar as a number of musicians and other performing artists have been disappeared into various forms of extrajudicial and extra-legal detention. Some have gone to camps; some have gone to prison. One recently was reportedly sentenced to 15 years in a closed trial, for which there is absolutely no documentation anywhere. We're seeing musicians and the cultural elite disappear alongside all sorts of people from all walks of life in Uighur society.

I'm seeing a decrease in musical activity. That was the particular focus of my research, on music. Public concerts have gone down to basically zero. The professional ensembles don't perform anymore. There is not much left of a public cultural life. That is very alarming, because the previous cultural public life was a space and a forum for the survival of Uighur tradition and Uighur language and so forth. A lot of spaces are gone.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We will go to Ms. Khalid for five minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Could I split my time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Zuberi.