Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on July 21st, 2020

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Dr. Anderson, you have two Ph.D.s and you have quite a bit of expertise around Asian studies. I'm wondering if you have observed that there's a link between the very terrorizing treatment by the CCP against the Uighur Muslims and the manipulation of Burma and the Rohingya Muslims and how they've been treated and really purged out of Burma.

[Dr. Elise Anderson]

It would be a very interesting and worthwhile structural comparison to make between those two cases. To be very frank, given my area of expertise, I wouldn't feel fully comfortable ruminating orally on that today, but I will say that I think these are both absolutely atrocious, horrendous crimes against humanity that we all wish we were not seeing in the 21st century. It falls on the responsibility of governments like Canada, the United States and other multi-actors around the world and multilateral institutions to address, because the crimes that are being committed as part of both of those atrocities are absolutely horrible.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Ms. Lehr, you've been on the ground in Burma in the past in your career.

Our former ambassador, Mr. Saint-Jacques, just mentioned the silence of Arab countries. I want to link that back to some previous testimony of one of our witnesses who said that silence is because of the new Silk Road initiative and that many of the Muslim countries have significant investments from the Chinese Communist Party and have been silenced by virtually being bought off. I wonder if you have any opinion in that regard.

[Amy Lehr]

It's very interesting, the difference in the reaction from the majority Muslim world to what's happened to the Rohingya versus the situation in Xinjiang.

With the Rohingya, there's an International Court of Justice case that's being funded by the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation. It's a very different situation, and I do think China's a really important player in the world now, and, yes, is building around the world and providing loans, and that's influencing the Uighurs. It's just a different force to reckon with, and it's going to take more effort. As hard as the situation in Burma has been, the situation in Xinjiang is going to require all different sorts of actors working together to address the private sector, governments like Canada to multilateral institutions.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Mr. Saint-Jacques, we had Bill Browder on earlier, and he, of course, is the champion of the Magnitsky act and, because of Sergei Magnitsky, he was saying he feels that one of the most effective things Canada could do would be to use that surgical capability of naming and sanctioning those individuals who were involved in this Uighur terrorization. Would you agree with that?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

I would say that in theory it's a very useful tool, but the problem is that if you look at the hot spots around the world, so far the Canadian government has been reluctant to use it.

I would say that of course we know China can be vindictive; we have already paid a heavy price. I think the Canadian government would need to look at this in terms of consistency in how we should use this act. This is why I said earlier that we should work much more closely with our allies to develop common responses and a common attitude.

I must say that, faced with all of the evidence we now have on what's happening in Xinjiang, we need to take common measures. Among them would be deciding whether we should lay sanctions against Chinese officials, and of course be conscious that probably China will want to retaliate. That's why I said earlier that we need to be in good company.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Now we'll move to Ms. Khalid for seven minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for your compelling testimony. I'm just going to seek some points of clarification.

Dr. Anderson, in your recommendation as well as in your remarks today, you referred to what's happening to the Uighur community as crimes against humanity, and one of your recommendations was to investigate whether a genocide has occurred.

Can you please provide a distinction between the two?

[Dr. Elise Anderson]

Crimes against humanity and genocide are two distinct legal concepts. I will qualify the statements I'm about to make by reminding you that I am not a legal expert by any means, but my understanding is that crimes against humanity focuses on the circumstances that might lead, for example, to the killing of a large number of individuals, whereas genocide is not necessarily about killing. It can include it, but more specifically focuses on the destruction of groups and a series of circumstances and conditions that lead to the destruction of those particular groups.

I would happily yield my time for comment to either of my co-panellists, if they feel that they can more adequately address this question.

Thank you.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Ms. Lehr, you also used the same terminology as Dr. Anderson, if you'd like to provide some insight.

[Amy Lehr]

At a high level, the difference is that crimes against humanity involve a widespread and concerted attack against the civilian population, but it might not be based on, let's say, their identity as a group.

In the case of genocide, there's the fact that you are trying to destroy a group in whole or in part and that there's an intent to do so.

They are thus legally different, and the intent element of genocide in particular can be a bit challenging to establish.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Lehr, in your remarks you talked about forced labour. We've heard many proposed recommendations from other witnesses concerning how to deal with this very challenging issue of supply.

There are two kinds of recommendations before us. One is the launch of the Canadian ombudsperson for responsible enterprise, which Canada has just embarked upon. We're wondering whether that would be an effective way of monitoring or following the supply chain.

The second that was recommended arose from the USMCA's having provisions in it now that restrict the use of forced labour in supply chains.

What are some of your recommendations on how Canada can monitor its supply chains to make sure they are free of forced labour, especially from the Uighur community?

[Amy Lehr]

To really understand this and understand what the risks are, you ideally would not only be looking at direct exports into Canada, or imports into Canada from Xinjiang, but also the indirect implications on your supply chains. That's the harder part.

In my experience, what you need is someone with Mandarin skills—strong, strong, written Mandarin research skills—to be looking at Chinese company documents and government statements to identify some of these companies that are involved in the pairing program, getting subsidies for re-educating people, etc. That takes research.

I think that if you were to perhaps have your ombudsman...they would need funding to hire that person with that expertise. You can't do it in English. They might be able to help to provide watch-lists of companies to be aware of and also the sectors to focus on. I think that would be quite helpful.

I also would suggest that when you think about global Magnitsky or your equivalent—those kinds of sanctions—I agree with the ambassador that they need to be used on a multilateral level. From everything we know about sanctions, that's what makes them effective. However, you can target companies too, or government officials, at least with U.S. global Magnitsky you can. I think that's another opportunity. Frankly, company officials may care a lot more about coming to the U.S. and Canada than CCP officials...somewhere in Xinjiang. I just want to plant that idea as an option.

Another element you could consider, and this could be broader than just to Xinjiang, would be having the kind of ban on goods produced with forced labour that the U.S. has. Again, you could do that in a way [Technical difficulty—Editor]. It's not anti-China; it's just trying to manage forced labour issues across the world.

Obviously I think that engagement with your company in trying to get them to start proactively looking at their supply chains is really, really key. In the U.S., there's a really strong push for that which we'll be seeing over the coming weeks.

I hope that helps to address some of your questions.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Lehr.

I have one last question.

Mr. Saint-Jacques, you mentioned the number of times you were advocating, in your role as ambassador, for Mr. Celil, who was imprisoned in China.

Over the whole span of trying to advocate and provide consular services, what was the response that you received from the Chinese government?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

Unfortunately, the response was always consistent. They said he had acquired Canadian citizenship illegally, and for that reason, they said he was therefore Chinese. They said also that he had not officially renounced his Chinese citizenship. Although the Chinese citizenship law says that if you acquire a foreign nationality, you automatically lose your Chinese citizenship, despite their own law, they kept saying that he was Chinese.

They always refused our entreaties to see him, to ensure that he would have access to a lawyer. We were always stonewalled, including I recall when Prime Minister Harper came to visit during my time as ambassador. I think it was in 2014 that he raised the case of Mr. Celil, and he was told that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Now we'll move to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe, for seven minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today. We're very glad to have them, because the work of this committee is very important.

My first question is for Mr. Saint-Jacques.

Yesterday, we heard from Irwin Cotler, a former justice minister who is very involved in human rights advocacy. He told the committee that Canada should declare what is happening in Xinjiang a genocide and that it's time to stop being passive.

I'll ask you outright. Do you agree with that approach, Mr. Saint-Jacques?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

Personally, I think what's happening in Xinjiang is a genocide. It's hard to come to any other conclusion when you know what constitutes a genocide and when you see all of the control measures the Chinese government has introduced to curb female fertility, not to mention the detention and treatment of Uighurs in so-called re-education camps.

However, before we can declare it a genocide, we have to work with our partners. It's unfortunate that all the efforts of the UN Human Rights Council, in Geneva, were in vain. That illustrates how difficult it is right now to address these issues. Let's not forget that China controls the council.

I think we need to work with our allies. If we surround ourselves with the right company, not only can we declare it a genocide, but we can also take similar steps simultaneously.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

If Canada were ever to declare a genocide on its own, before taking a bilateral or multilateral approach, how would such a statement affect Canada-China relations, in your view?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

They would deteriorate further. Since establishing diplomatic ties, nearly 50 years ago, we've never had such a poor relationship. Traditionally, China's approach is to punish anyone who dares to criticize it. Canada would have to expect to be targeted by very severe measures, which China would take to scare other countries.

That's why I think we need to work with other countries to establish a common position. Our shared western values are at stake.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

On another topic, in 2018, it was decided that President Xi Jinping would remain in power until his death. This is contrary to what had been done previously, when the head of state changed once the presidential term limit had been reached.

How do you think things can change when Xi Jinping can remain in power indefinitely?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

It's very tough to imagine how, since he's been able to get rid of his opponents through the anticorruption campaign. That's what he used to eliminate potential successors. That said, there are still pockets of resistance in the Chinese Communist Party, as I mentioned earlier. We need to find ways to encourage those individuals.

The level of discontent in China is high. A lot of people are unhappy with the economic situation and Xi Jinping's policy, which hurts China's interests.

Again, I would say we need to find ways to help those forces, while assuming that Xi Jinping will likely remain in power for many years.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Saint-Jacques.

Ms. Lehr, you mentioned supply chains in your remarks.

As far as you know, can we already identify private western companies involved in the Xinjiang supply chain?

[Amy Lehr]

It's certainly possible to identify companies that are involved in that supply chain. It just takes research. Again, I don't know what the quality of your import data is. For me, I can look quite easily; I just pay a little money and I get access to a commercial database that shows me everything shipping directly from Xinjiang. I can see who it ships to. It's quite easy in the U.S. I know that the quality of data is not always publicly available for other countries. I just don't know Canada as well.

I think that's step one. That's the easy part. It's quite easy to not get direct imports from Xinjiang if you're a company. All of them should be looking at that, at this point. They've been warned about the problem. The issue will be looking deeper in the supply chain at companies that are sourcing from there maybe four or five tiers away. That requires the kind of research I mentioned earlier.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

As regards what's happened in Xinjiang, you seem to have had access to the stories of many survivors.

Can you share details of the abuses suffered by the people there?