Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 10th, 2022

[Yuriy Bova, Mayor, City of Trostyanets]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

Good day to everyone.

I represent a small Ukrainian city called Trostyanets. We are located 30 kilometres from the Russian Federation, so from the very first day, we were very aware of all of the war activities. The Russian army entered the city with hundreds of armoured cars and thousands of Russian troops, who occupied the city. It was a peaceful city, because there was no Ukrainian military stationed there, so we were occupied.

From the very first days, they started to commit acts of atrocities against the civilian population. On the third day, there was a woman who was walking along the street to go to buy some groceries. She was an elderly lady of 75 years. She was killed by a Russian sniper. This sniper wouldn't let anyone approach the body of this woman for three days. No relatives could collect the body. They wouldn't allow anyone to approach, so she was just laying there in the street. We all felt terrorized.

There were many instances. For example, in another case, a private house was bombed and the person who lived there was torn to pieces.

Another thing is that the Russians prevented people from burying the dead. We found people who had been terrorized and interrogated. We saw the beatings and their hands were tied. There are untold atrocities.

In one case, a woman had to piece together the body of her husband, but she was prevented from burying him. The children had to see the body of their father, who was in the house, and they were not able to bury him. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine living in the house?

There are untold horrible situations, and there are a number of such horrible situations that happened during the occupation of the city.

The Russians placed their tanks in the cemetery and they would not allow for any burial to take place.

We tried to organize so-called “green corridors” to evacuate people from the city. However, under the pretense of these so-called green corridors, the Russians brought more troops and more armaments into the city. They searched people. They stopped people.

We were cut off from the rest of the world, because there were interruptions with communications. We kept seeing huge numbers of Russian military personnel and huge amounts of military equipment. We never knew what was going to happen next and what other kinds of suffering they were going to execute on us.

The Russians occupied us for 31 days. During this 31-day period, they prevented any food supplies from entering and being brought to the city. At the same time, they robbed all the pharmacies and all the stores. They destroyed all of the ambulances, so the city was left without a single working ambulance.

One woman had to walk for miles to get to a local medical clinic. On the way there—I know this for a fact, because she worked at the city council—she was killed by fire from a Russian military vehicle.

We had a number of older people who were, again, prevented from leaving the city. The Russians would not allow anyone to leave the city.

We had interruptions in electricity and water supply. People had to go without food supplies and without functioning water. In the early days, because it was still February, there was snow. People were melting snow and drinking water from melted snow.

We found some notes afterwards. We don't know who that Russian person was. He said, “On March 3 we arrived at the city of Trostyanets, but we are actually behaving like fascists. We have robbed all the stores. We have broken all the windows and we've done much damage.” Then he continues, this Russian soldier, at the same time, “I went through a store and found a nice ladies' bag for my wife and some other accessories. I didn't take anything else, because I didn't like anything else that I saw there.”

So these people, these Russians, realize what they are doing. It's not like they don't understand what they are doing. Nevertheless, they continue these activities. Our security services—

[The Chair]

Mr. Bova, could I ask you to conclude?

[Yuriy Bova]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

We found a notebook from one of the soldiers that describes the interrogations and atrocities that more than 20 people who were in that torture chamber suffered through. On March 23 our local hospital was bombed. Tanks fired 32 shots from a distance of about 200 metres.

[The Chair]

Mr. Bova, can I ask you to conclude your remarks? The members have questions that they want to ask all the panellists. You have 10 seconds to conclude, please.

[Yuriy Bova]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

Those are examples of the atrocities. The entire world should make sure that Putin is brought to account.

We believe in Ukraine and the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and we believe in our victory. Ukraine will be victorious.

Thank you.

[The Chair]

Thank you, Mr. Bova.

Now we will go to the members for questions.

I will say that, for each segment, each member has only five minutes. Once those are up, I will have to indicate that and cut you off.

The first member for this round is Ms. Vandenbeld.

You have the floor.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

Before I begin, I think I speak for all of us and all parliamentarians in saying that we absolutely stand solidly with you. We applaud your courage. We stand beside you in our outrage at the crimes that you are testifying about today.

It is good to see you again, Ms. Kravchuk. I wish and I hope that next time it will be under much better circumstances.

Ms. Musayeva, the fact that as a journalist you have of necessity become a human rights defender—I think we all applaud everything that you're doing.

I want to direct my questions today to Mayor Atroshenko and Mayor Bova, who are testifying today from their cities with such courage, telling us what has actually happened. I've heard all of you talking about impunity, about crimes not going unpunished, and that there has to be accountability. Often when we are dealing with these things it's after the fact, when much of the evidence has been destroyed. It's very hard to go back in time and collect the kind of evidence that can hold up in court, but this is happening now. This is happening in real time.

Can you tell us what Canada can do? We've sent members of our national police force, the RCMP, to the International Criminal Court to do investigations. Is there more that we can do to support those on the ground, who are experiencing and seeing this and witnessing it first-hand, to understand what they need to do in order to be able to document this, maybe helping the Ukrainian prosecutor's office or civil society members?

I will start with you, Mr. Atroshenko. Go ahead.

[Vladyslav Atroshenko]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

I think that for Canada and all our major partners who are the most staunch in their support—the U.K., Poland, the U.S., the Baltic states—for us what's most important is that we urge all these NATO member states, all these EU member states, to maintain economic sanctions. We think the economic sanctions on the one hand and our military resistance within Ukraine are the most important things that can be done right now.

That's why we do understand that if you join in the sanctions, then your countries of course are suffering certain losses—some more, some less. However, today we clearly understand that Putin is related to Hitler in his ideology, and propagating fascism cannot be justified. I think the consistent pressure of the sanctions and speaking to European countries—Hungary, for example—urging them to join in the sanctions.... Hungary is a NATO member, but it should be urged to be more active, and Germany and France, by the way.... These are the biggest things.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

[Vladyslav Atroshenko]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

We need weapons, the high-tech weapons. This is what will help us triumph over Putin.

Thank you.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

I know there's not much time left, so I'd like to have Mr. Bova weigh in as well.

Go ahead, Mr. Bova.

[Yuriy Bova]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

You know, you're entirely right. We do need to collect this evidence as soon as possible. We need to prepare the documents of those witnesses, and it has to be done by people who have the relevant experience. You know, our generation did not know war, so all these investigators who are investigating need your assistance, so please come to our cities. We haven't been able to rebuild everything. You can see the ruins with your own eyes.

We preserved the very tank that destroyed our hospital. Our Ukrainian armed forces damaged it, and inside the tank are the documents of all the tank crew who committed these crimes. There are people who were tortured, and maybe there are psychologists who can work with them. There are people who are prepared to work with others to tell the atrocities they lived through, but it's very hard to talk about these things, about the atrocities that were committed against their persons and against their bodies. This has to be recorded and then shown to the world.

You have to show how Russia behaved. They behaved like Nazi Germany, and international journalists should come and show the truth about Russia. The entire world did not believe at first that Russia would attack Ukraine. They did not believe that Putin's policies were criminal, and today, as you go to Chernihiv, to Trostyanets, to Bucha, to Irpin and to other cities, you and the Europeans can witness what this policy has done to Ukraine.

It's not just Putin's policy. It's the entire Russian policy. These Russian soldiers.... He was decrying facsim, yet he was behaving like a fascist. He was looting. These people live differently. They have a different mentality, and the entire world has to see and do something about it.

Russian troops are being neutralized by the Ukrainian army, and we are grateful for all the help you're providing in that regard, but we have to think more long term. Even if they do leave Ukraine, the aggression could come back. Today they're bombing Ukrainian cities where there are no Russian troops. We have air raid sirens every day. Sumy region was bombed today. How long can this go on for? We need economic sanctions. We need international influence.

I would urge Canadian cities and towns to rupture their ties with Russian cities and towns. You cannot be friends with aggressors. Let us forge these ties with Ukrainian cities and help Ukrainian cities rebuild.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

Now we have to go to Mr. Cooper.

You have seven minutes, Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It's Mr. Viersen.

[The Chair]

Yes. My apologies.

Go ahead, Mr. Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here as well.

Ms. Kravchuk, I'm going to start with you.

We know that the Russian military seems to be violating the laws of engagement during the war. I think the comment has been made that even war has rules.

We have folks from around the world who are coming to the aid of Ukraine. We have the Ukrainian army. We have Ukrainian civilians being armed.

What is the Ukrainian government doing to educate those who are fighting for Ukraine on international humanitarian law and the rules of engagement, how to identify some of these crimes that have been committed and how to report those, because they are the people who are on the ground there? They're eyewitnesses to this. Is anything being done to ensure that they are capable of identifying war crimes and capable of reporting these war crimes? Is there anything being done in that regard?

[Yevheniia Kravchuk]

From the very beginning in February, we had a big network of NGOs that volunteered to help to collect the war crimes. These NGOs are working in the field of human rights defenders.

Also, as a former journalist actually, I would like to thank all the journalists who are working on the ground, because they are doing a great job right now. They go into hot spots, both international journalists from different.... As Yuriy Bova just said, they have tents of.... I'm going to give his phone number to a lot of journalists. He probably doesn't know, but I give it out. They are collecting evidence.

When I had a speech in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, I was giving testimony of these principals I mentioned to you from Katiuzhanka, from the Kyiv region. These testimonies were sent to me by a journalist who was writing in English, in German and I think in some of the Scandinavian languages. He just sent me these testimonies with evidence on who said that, and I delivered it to an international audience.

Of course, probably we're not that educated, and we didn't have too much training on how to report these war crimes, but we do put these onto paper and save it to give to an international tribunal, because everyone you see, every witness, is saying that. It's coming from the heart of every person in Ukraine that this evil has to be punished.

If I have 30 seconds I will maybe jump into the previous question about what can be done by Canada and how it can help. Together with putting this onto paper, there's also help in trauma counselling and help for women who experienced sexual violence because the numbers for sexual violence is very under-reported because women are afraid. They are afraid to be stigmatized, and they do not want to talk. I'm also an author of a resolution in PACE, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, about women in conflicts. I found out that in, for example, the Balkans conflict, some of the women started to talk 15 years later. It's a long process and we would need this support in trauma counselling, especially because the women are not only in Ukraine. They also fled the country into other regions and they need to get this support in any corner of the world where they are.

Thank you.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

That's precisely where I was going to go next with my questioning.

We know that millions of people have been fleeing, mostly women and children. Ukraine has been a target country for human traffickers before the war and that's only gotten worse.

Is the Ukrainian government spending any time on trying to educate folks who are fleeing the country to watch out for the human traffickers? Are you working with the European Union on how to combat the human trafficking that is occurring?

[Yevheniia Kravchuk]

It's really difficult to educate people who are fleeing the country with two or three kids on their hands, because it's a very hectic time. However, we do work with the European Union and commissioners and the European bureaucrats who are dealing with this. As for me, I went on a few trips. I had meetings in the European Parliament, and our counterparts in the European Parliament are aware of this problem. They're working together with their volunteers and trying to alert about this situation. Of course, women, especially with kids, are vulnerable groups for human trafficking. We do work with our colleagues in European countries to make sure that there will be fewer targets for that.

To conclude, we've been talking about all these atrocities that are happening and people fleeing. We need to go to what has caused that. The only way to stop these atrocities, to stop gross human rights violations, to stop people fleeing the country and being targets of human trafficking is winning this war and stopping Putin. There's no other way to stop that and to end all of the atrocities.

Right now, somewhere in Kherson region, Russians are torturing Ukrainians, or in Mariupol or in other villages that are under the control of Russian troops, at the very same moment. The sooner we get the heavy weapons, the sooner we'll kick them out of our country and liberate our land. We will end the atrocities and end human rights violations.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair]

We now go to Mr. Trudel.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the four witnesses. The testimony we are hearing this evening is very touching, especially the testimony from mayors, who talked about everything that has happened in their cities. I thank them very much.

My question is for Ms. Musayeva.

Ms. Musayeva, from our perspective, we feel that this is really the first war being broadcast directly on the Internet. A huge number of photos of atrocities taking place across Ukraine is being posted on social networks, including Twitter and Facebook. Here I am thinking of what happened in Bucha. We saw the first photos of bodies on the street and, a few days later, we heard Russian officials denying responsibility and saying that Ukraine was setting them up.

How do you verify whether what is being reported is true and avoid disinformation? How are you doing that as a journalist?

[Sevgil Musayeva]

Thank you for your question.

Yes, it's important. As journalists, we've already faced and lived with the circumstances of an information war and a hybrid war for the last eight years. It started from the annexation of Crimea. I am faced with this personally because my family lived in Crimea during this time, and I remember how Russian propaganda lied about everything that was going on in Ukraine and in Crimea.

After these last eight years, journalists in Ukraine have good experience on how to fight this propaganda and how to protect themselves in these violations in the field of information as well.

What is my response? I think one of my favourite examples of how it was during this time is that of two photographers who were in Mariupol. Evgeniy Maloletka and Mstyslav Chernov filmed a lot of human rights violations in Mariupol. For example, they filmed and took photos of the hospital in Mariupol that was bombed by Russians. I remember how the Russian embassy in Britain first said that it was fake news, but the photographers provided all the evidence that it wasn't and that they took these photos.

How do we work during this time? We have reporters in different cities, of course. Actually, I visited Trostyanets, for example, last month and I met with Yuriy Bova. I saw these techniques with my own eyes.

Of course, we have a lot of open sources and choose how we control this information, how we control all these photos we receive. Of course, first of all, we were faced sometimes at the beginning of the war with some fake photos from a territory that was occupied by Russia during that time, but it was actually easy. We have a lot of open tools that help us to know what is photoshopped. A lot of other journalists work from this place and also give us the truth and give us an understanding of this situation.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

My next question will be for Ms. Kravchuk.

We are under the impression that the conflict is currently dormant. An attack has been ongoing for a month and a half. We may be under a false impression here, but it seems that Russians are not advancing and that Ukrainians are about to start regaining ground, in a way.

Information has been published according to which about 1.1 million Ukrainian refugees in Poland would like to return to Ukraine. Mayors have told us that some parts of Ukraine may be in rebuilding mode.

What is Ukrainians' state of mind right now?

Everything you have told us shows how incredibly resilient the Ukrainian people have been. It is currently difficult to know whether the war will end in a month or in three years. I don't think anyone has that answer.

According to you, how are the Ukrainian people reacting to what is happening right now?

[Yevheniia Kravchuk]

You know, when I was returning from my trip to Strasbourg, I was taking a bus from Poland. It was a regular bus. There was no space on this bus. Everyone was returning home, so that's why we're asking people not to call Ukrainians refugees. They've not given up their homeland. They want to return. They're seeking temporary asylum in the countries they are in. They want to go home to their cities.

For example, in Poland, I went to a place where our externally displaced people are, and I met a family from Chernihiv. Their house was ruined, so they can't really come back right now, but I'm sure that we will rebuild Chernihiv. It will, of course, take some time.

In those cities that were not under heavy bombing, people are coming back right now. However, it's impossible to come back to the Donetsk region or to the Luhansk region. In the Luhansk region, the one million people who stayed, both in occupied territories since 2014 and free or freshly occupied territory, do not have access to water because the infrastructure for the water supply was completely ruined. You can't live there.

Right now, our troops are regaining parts of the Kharkiv region, village by village, every day. People can't come back the very next day. Yesterday, two women in the village, which was liberated three days ago, stepped on a mine and they died.

That's another thing where Canada can help us, because we know that you're very good in the demining process. That's very much needed, because right now Ukraine is the most polluted country in the world with mines and artillery that haven't blown up. We really need help with that.

On the other hand, we understand that we need our economy to be running. We're getting this financial aid, but we understand that our country needs to rebuild back to the pre-war economy. Where businesses can work, they should work. Where people can live, they should live.

Thank you.