Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 16th, 2023

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

We are going to continue on.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you have seven minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We're working as a team today. This committee is extremely important for determining next steps. We have only one meeting left.

People are focusing on what's happening now, but the motion also mentions the genocide carried out from 1891 to 1893. The goal is to demonstrate that that genocide was the precipitating factor leading to the persecution of the Hazara people today. That's what we need to demonstrate.

My question for the witnesses is simple but vitally important for the next steps, in terms of the report we will write.

Mr. Mohebi, were the Hazara people victims of a genocide from 1891 to 1893?

[Ibrahim Mohebi]

I'm so sorry. I missed the first part of the question. Can you repeat it?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Were the Hazara people victims of a genocide from 1891 to 1893?

[Ibrahim Mohebi]

Actually, this is a historical issue, but as I witness what is going on with the Hazara people right now, in the 21st century, it's because of the after-effect or the consequence of the fatwa or the jihad given by King Abdur Rahman in 1891-93 that they consider the Hazara people as infidels, and they also enslaved the Hazara people and forced them to be displaced. Their lands were given to non-Hazara people. Some of the witnesses also mentioned what happened in Uruzgan province, and the same in Kandahar, which originally was the land of the Hazara people. They were forced to flee the country. Most of them went to Pakistan, but some were not able to cross the border towards the northern parts, which were Russian countries at that time.

Unfortunately, those who were inside the country were all subject to the fatwa or jihad that was decreed by King Abdur Rahman. Mainly, that happened because of the Hazara people belonging to a minority sect of Muslims, which is Shia. That was a very easy tool for King Abdur Rahman to consider the Hazara people as infidels and subject them to genocide as infidels.

Unfortunately, that has given the mentality among the Afghan society that, as secondary citizens, they don't have the rights to live in the country. They are always targeted, even psychologically, which, as some other witnesses also mentioned, made it easier for society to have a recruitment pathway in the south of Asia for the extremists to go and to kill the Hazara people as infidels. That's what made the Hazara people a soft target during the current situation. It's based on the fatwa and the jihad that was given by King Abdur Rahman.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Ahmadi, could you tell us how important it is for Canada to recognize the genocide that was committed from 1891 to 1893?

[Shamim Ahmadi]

It won't heal all our wounds that we have suffered, but it definitely brings a lot of change if Canada recognizes the genocide of Hazaras in Afghanistan. Once the genocide is recognized, it will give us peace of mind that our voices are heard.

When I was a young, little girl, when attacks were happening, even in the news, everything was misinterpreted around the world. The number of people who were killed was misrepresented to the world, and the number of injured people.

This will definitely bring a bit of awareness to the world. If you recognize it, it will bring awareness to the world, and it may change a lot of laws on how to treat even refugees, newcomers to the country. This is the most important thing because when our genocide is not recognized, first of all when we are refugees in another country, we have to be first, as Hazaras, treated as refugees. We don't need another story, an individual story. Once we are Hazaras, we are refugees because we are targeted systematically in Afghanistan and in the neighbouring countries.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Kerr Chiovenda, how certain can we be that the events of 1891 to 1893 can be considered a genocide against the Hazaras?

[Melissa Kerr Chiovenda]

I'm completely certain that this was a genocide. It hits all of the marks for the international legal definition of genocide. You clearly have an ethnic and religious group and there are documents from the time period that show they were targeted: the call for jihad against Hazaras because they were Shia. That's one thing.

You have the destruction of the whole or part of the group. Absolutely, this is what happened. If you think about what it means, more than 60% of the population being killed, enslaved or displaced, that absolutely checks that box. You think about the conditions that were made so that this group could not survive. You think about the subsequent giving away of Hazara land, displacement of Hazaras, enslavement of Hazaras and heavy taxation. When I talk about taxation, it seems like something not very important, but I'm talking about a level of taxes specific to Hazaras that made survival impossible.

I keep coming back to the women issue and the issue of rape and forced marriages. This isn't something that is much talked about, for cultural reasons, but this was also a huge problem. The silence that surrounds this is important. We're only just now starting to see, to talk about what it meant that so many of the enslaved Hazaras who were given away as spoils of war were women who were raped and pushed into forced marriages. This also constituted an effort to destroy an ethnic and religious group.

As I said, I have no doubt in my mind that what happened in 1891 to 1893 fulfills the definition of genocide—no doubt whatsoever.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

No, your time is up.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Chair, I just want to take a few seconds to tell you that I can't see you on the Zoom screen, so I had no way of knowing how much time I had left.

I think it's important for people attending via Zoom to have some way of knowing how much time they have left.

I want to thank all the witnesses for their testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

There will be more rounds of questioning.

You're right. Moving forward, I'll proceed in the following way.

I will give a hand signal at 30 seconds.

Mr. Cannings, welcome to the committee. You have seven minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for convening this meeting on the situation of Hazaras in Afghanistan.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today to provide their testimony.

I'm subbing in for my colleague, MP Heather McPherson, who has been engaging with that Hazara community regularly, especially since the fall of Kabul in August 2021.

Before I begin my questioning, I'd like to read into the record a motion that was circulated by Heather McPherson in regard to a study she would like the committee to conduct in the fall.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We don't do motions or votes in this committee. It's consensus. There are no motions. It's a consensus committee.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'm sorry. I was—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

It is your right to read it in, but it is not the normal culture of this committee to do that.

However, it's your right to read it in.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'll read it in anyway, just to put it on the record. It's not to do with this study; it's asking for another one.

That pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the subcommittee conduct a study of the meaningful implementation of the “Voices at Risk: Canada's Guidelines on Supporting Human Rights Defenders”, and the human rights impacts of Canada's diplomatic support for Canadian extractive industries abroad; that the subcommittee conducts no fewer than two meetings on this topic; and that the subcommittee reports its findings to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Mr. Chair, I do find this rather inappropriate, given the fact that he's not a regular member of this committee and the fact that this committee is a subcommittee; it's a very special committee. Running roughshod over our normal processes is incredibly inappropriate.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Mr. Viersen, normally I would recognize you before you speak, but we'll accept that. You are a vice-chair also.

It's his right to read it in, but it is very much counter to the culture of this committee. We have not seen that in the last several months.

Let us continue in the remaining time we have, as already two and a half minutes have passed.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

That's fine. I apologize. I didn't feel that I was running roughshod over anything. I just wanted to put that on the record, as I was asked to do by Ms. McPherson.

I will continue now with questions. I would like to direct them to the Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services, and Ms. Ahmadi in particular.

First, could you explain and speak to the experiences of the Hazara community right now in Afghanistan, especially the experience of women and girls, particularly following the Taliban takeover in 2021? What challenges are Hazara women and girls faced with?

[Shamim Ahmadi]

Thank you for your question. It's a very important question you have asked me, regarding the Hazara women in Afghanistan at the moment. Hazara girls, like every other girl there right now, are bound to their homes. They cannot go anywhere. Specifically for Hazara girls, it's very much harder, as they're at risk of being kidnapped and raped for their facial features, for the way they dress and for the way they present themselves in society.

I can give you some examples. When the Taliban took power in Afghanistan, a lot of these women and girls and their families tried to escape across the border to Pakistan. When they were at the border in Pakistan, I was in direct contact with them. We were getting emails, and we were trying to help these people and evacuate them from the border. Unfortunately, the witnesses were telling me that the Taliban were keeping the Hazara women and Hazara people at the border. They were not allowing them to cross the border. Even when the women were wearing burkas, if they had a child who had the facial features of a Hazara, the Taliban would say, “They're Hazara. Stop them”, so they were not able to escape the country. They had to remain inside the country. It's really hard to keep the women safe. When they tried to escape the country, they were easily recognized by the Taliban. They are more at risk at this time.

Right now the extremists who are in power are not doing a lot of stuff in the country. They're waiting for the international community to recognize them as a government. My fear is that if they are recognized once, they will start attacking Hazaras. They could very easily start attacking women, kidnapping them and raping them. This is my very big fear at the moment inside Afghanistan for Hazara women.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I would like to continue with the Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services, either Ms. Ahmadi or Mr. Mohebi.

Could you please speak to how Canada can better support the Hazara community and the work of organizations like yours to do the good work that you do?