Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 16th, 2023

[Ibrahim Mohebi]

Thank you so much.

I think the least the Canadian government and Parliament could do at this moment would be to recognize the genocide of Hazaras that was faced by the Hazara community from 1891 to 1893. That first step of acknowledgment, hopefully globally, would change the socio-psychological approach toward the Hazara people in both the Afghan society as well as the international community. That could bring the concerns and awareness to the international society.

We are hopeful that this would bring safeguards for the protection of Hazaras, who are suffering right now based on that genocide. Based on Abdur Rahman's order, they lost their lands. Right now, in the Behsud district of Wardak province and in Ghazni, the Kuchis are invading there every year during the spring, killing hundreds and displacing thousands of Hazara people with no reason, just because Abdur Rahman said those lands belong not to Hazaras but to Kuchis or non-Hazaras, mainly Pashtuns.

If that genocide is recognized, I am hopeful that there will be a layer of safeguard for the Hazara people, who can be identified based on their facial features. I was a witness in August 1998, when some Uzbek people were killed just because they looked like Hazaras. Hazaras can be killed based on their small eyes and small nose. I hope that the recognition of genocide will stop this atrocity in the future and our children and grandchildren can live with dignity and feel valued.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Mr. Mohebi.

We're now going to continue to our second round. The order is a bit different from what we started with in the first round.

Now we will have Mr. Ehsassi for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Allow me to also thank all the witnesses for their exceptional testimony. No doubt it is difficult, but they have done a superb job in terms of advocacy.

It's very obvious to all of us that the Hazara community in Afghanistan has faced decades upon decades of discrimination and hardship, which obviously started in the late 19th century. I have read reports that indicate that the Hazara community, despite all this hardship, has demonstrated incredible resilience, and there is an emphasis on education within the Hazara community, as well as very progressive views insofar as the role of women is concerned.

I wonder if anyone could speak to these two factors—how the Hazaras community has proven so resilient and how it continues to invest in human capital. Do any of the witnesses want to take that?

[Dr. Ali Karimi]

Thank you very much for the question.

In Afghanistan, it is a well-known fact that Hazara women are better treated by their male family members than are women in other ethnic groups.

In the 1830s—apologies for going back to the 19th century again—the first American—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I just want to keep the focus on the modern era. Are there any particular studies that members of the committee should be privy to and have the opportunity to look at, just so we can highlight these two factors?

[Dr. Ali Karimi]

Yes. Because the Hazaras have a more egalitarian attitude towards women, they allow girls to go school. They allow the female members of the family to go out to work.

In one district of the Ghazni province, there are more high school girls than in the entire province of Helmand, which is a province in which Pashtuns reside. It is a source of resentment also for the terrorist groups that organize attacks and one reason we continue to see attacks on educational institutions. Hazara parents send their—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I think we can recognize that fact, but could you possibly, Professor Karimi, provide us with a couple of articles that talk about how the Hazara community does focus on education and does have a more progressive view of the role of women? I think that would be hugely helpful when we prepare our report for this committee.

I have a second question concerning testimony that came up. I can't quite recall who it was—it may have been Ms. Melissa Kerr—but there was talk about the madrasas in Afghanistan. Who is funding those madrasas? Is it foreign governments that are funding those educational institutions that have terrible perspectives on the Hazaras? Who is funding those madrasas in Afghanistan?

It did come up in testimony. Ms. Kerr, was it you?

[Melissa Kerr Chiovenda]

I wasn't the one who mentioned the madrasas.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I wasn't quite sure. My apologies for that.

[Melissa Kerr Chiovenda]

I apologize. I'm not sure who it was if it wasn't me.

In the relatively recent history, we do know there has been a lot of foreign influence of madrasas from the Gulf region, where I am right now. I think there has been evidence of that.

There is a pretty strong influence from Pakistan, of course. I'm not sure if that's the case in terms of funding. I'm not sure if it's funding so much as ideological and intellectual influence, and then the movement of people who are coming, back and forth, from these very extremist madrasas that have come up in Pakistan and that, I believe, have also been funded in the past from other parts of the world.

That's my sense. I don't know about the current situation—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Ms. Kerr and Mr. Ehsassi.

Thank you for that round of questioning.

We're going to continue on to Mr. Aboultaif for five minutes, please.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thanks to the witnesses. I would like to direct my questions to Mr. Karimi, and if I find another member to weigh in on my questions, we'll go from there.

In order to establish a full understanding of where we go from here, the history of the Hazara community goes back probably hundreds of years. The latest we have is since the 18th century. What we read and understood is that what the community has been going through is nothing but a playbook in recent history and some of the past over what happened to minorities in many regions of the world. Iraq is an example. What happened against the Christian communities and other minorities in Iraq is the most recent, and also what's happening in Afghanistan.

One thing that begs the question over this is, where is the leadership of the community? It's a community of almost 10 million people, as recognized in the world, as we see in the latest numbers. Where is the leadership? Who is speaking on behalf of the community?

[Dr. Ali Karimi]

The Hazaras are very diverse. They are the most diverse ethnic group in Afghanistan. They are Shias. They are Sunnis. They are Ismailis. Recently, there are new Christian converts. Because of this diversity, there is no one single establishment that would be regarded as leadership—for example, one single political party. There are several, and they have different political tendencies.

That has been a weak point for the Hazaras. They don't have one single institution to speak for them, both inside Afghanistan and outside of Afghanistan. There are mostly ad hoc community efforts, like the group you see today here. We organized on our own. We came here just to get somebody to listen to us. That has been one reason why the Hazaras' story is not that well known. When the genocide happened, the Armenian genocide happened almost at the same time, but the Armenian genocide is better known because of the sustained effort by the Armenian community in the west and also in Armenia, but not by the Hazaras.

The number two reason is that the British Empire was directly complicit in the genocide of the Hazaras, because it was very famously Russophobic. They wanted to keep away the Russians. They didn't care much about the cost, the human cost. For example, one reason why in the U.K. the politicians and members of Parliament shy away from the question of genocide is that they don't want to acknowledge their own role in the violence against Hazaras.

These have been some of the reasons why the Hazaras so far have failed in raising their voices on the international stage and attracting attention.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Mr. Karimi, thank you.

For the next question, it seems like what we heard from all witnesses was that the genocide call could be around the fact that this community is a Shia community from the Ithna Asheri, who are the ones who believe in the 12th imam, but the community is diverse.

I'm trying to understand one thing. Please help me to do so. The atrocities and persecutions against the community, is that beyond being Shia? Could it be because of the race? Do we call Hazaras “Shia”? We know that it's a mix of Mongols; they were named “Hazaras” because in Persia “hazara” meant “thousand”—the thousand soldiers who joined Genghis Khan at some point in history. Help me around this a bit. It seems that the emphasis from all witnesses is that the genocide is just because they are Shia and they are a different sect from the Sunnis under Islam.

[Dr. Ali Karimi]

Was that question directed to me?

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

The question is, could it be the race rather than the religious sect?

[Dr. Ali Karimi]

It definitely was the race. In Afghanistan, religion has always been used as a weapon. It has been weaponized to mobilize people. But the purpose has always been racial. This race and ethnicity conflict has been the key foundation for all of the wars in that country.

Some of the issues you mentioned have been used against the Hazaras, that they are Mongols, that they are not from this country. That is not entirely correct. Hazaras are mostly a Turkic people. Central Asia is a collection of Turkic people, with some Persians and some Arabs even.

Race has been the driving force behind the violence, but with religion for mobilization.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you have five minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To our witnesses, I just want to say that I think we've demonstrated that there was indeed a genocide against the Hazaras from 1891 to 1893.

Mr. Mohebi and Ms. Ahmadi, you both experienced persecution at different times, nearly a decade apart. I think that goes to show once again that the Hazara people have always been persecuted.

Am I right in saying that?

Ms. Ahmadi, maybe you could answer first.

[Shamim Ahmadi]

Absolutely. As a Hazara, I've always been treated differently. It's very obvious. You can feel it. You can see it. You can hear it.

With my work at the beginning, when the Taliban fell and the newcomers came to Canada from Afghanistan, I was on the hotel side helping these newcomers. The incident happened inside Canada. The Pashtun people were knocking on Hazaras' doors in hotels and telling them, “Be thankful that you're in Canada. If you were not in Canada, I would diminish your race totally, like Abdur Rahman Khan.”

We had a meeting with COSTI. We emailed Immigration as well. It was heartbreaking to hear this in a country like Canada from another ethnicity warning our Hazara people. We are very easily recognizable. If we stand among other ethnicities in Afghanistan, we have these Asian facial features. No matter what religion we are, if we are Hazara, it's in our face. No one can hide it. It has existed—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

What you just said is very important. Rest assured that it will be included in the report. If this is happening to you in Canada, we can only imagine what goes on in Afghanistan.

Mr. Mohebi, do you have anything to add?

[Ibrahim Mohebi]

For sure. The atrocities that the Hazara community has suffered have been for centuries. Everybody knows about that.

As I said earlier, that is the outcome or the consequence of the genocide that happened in the 19th century. That gives a socio-psychological view to the non-Hazara society that Hazaras are second-rate citizens, and they are treating them as second-rate citizens. Unfortunately, there was no voice and there was no safeguard for the Hazara community, so it was very easy to target the Hazara people, both the terrorists and also the civilians.

As I mentioned earlier in my testimony, in August 1998, even the civilians, non-Hazara civilians, were throwing stones at Hazaras on the day the Taliban took control of Mazar-e-Sharif. It was to prove their loyalty towards the Taliban. That was just coming off that fatwa, unfortunately, because we were considered infidels. With the punishment of the Hazara people, the civilian society is receiving a reward. That is the most painful for the Hazara communities.

Right now—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I'm sorry to have to interrupt you, but I don't have much time left.

You made me think of another question, Mr. Mohebi.

If the Parliament of Canada, or the Government of Canada, were to recognize the genocide committed against the Hazara people, if this committee wrote that in a report, could it become an example for other parliaments around the world to follow, in Europe or Latin America, for instance? Would it send them a message that they can do the same thing we're doing here?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

You have 30 seconds.