Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 16th, 2023

[Ibrahim Mohebi]

The Canadian Parliament has been a leader of democracy in the world and I'm quite sure that, if this initiative is taken by the Parliament of Canada, it will bring an awareness at the global and international level, and a focus on what has happened and what is going on in the Hazara community. I am hopeful that it will bring an international awareness all over the globe, and that the international community will try to recognize the genocide of the Hazara people.

Let us, as a leader of the democratic—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you.

We'll now continue with our next round.

Mr. Cannings, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to turn to Ms. Kerr Chiovenda to talk about refugees for a moment.

The immigration committee, in April of last year, issued a press release calling for the government to implement special immigration measures, like those enacted for Ukrainians fleeing Putin's illegal war, for other regions of the world facing humanitarian crises, such as Afghanistan. Do you agree with such a measure? What impact could this have in the short and long terms, especially for the Hazara community?

[Melissa Kerr Chiovenda]

Yes, I absolutely would agree with a measure such as that.

For those of us who.... I did research on Afghanistan, but also with Afghan refugees. We looked to the world's reaction to the war on Ukraine and the welcoming of Ukrainian refugees as the model that should have been applied to conflicts all over the world, and to people who are vulnerable or facing persecution or genocide all over the world.

Something like that would be incredibly important. If there were some acknowledgement, within that, of the particularly vulnerable status that Hazaras have in Afghanistan—and, if I might briefly say, in Pakistan as well; we're focusing on Afghanistan, but it's also important to mention that Hazaras in Pakistan are every bit as much in danger due to the particular social and political situation there—that would provide much-needed protection to an incredibly vulnerable group of people.

Yes, absolutely, I think that would be a very important movement to see.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'm wondering whether you could expand on that and share some of the findings from your research on refugees that you think would be important for us to know, as they relate to the Hazara community.

[Melissa Kerr Chiovenda]

I could echo some of what Ms. Ahmadi said. We do see these sorts of tensions between ethnicities, and whatnot.

I think maybe what is more important to focus on is.... I have written a lot of country expert reports for Afghanistan, and particularly for Hazaras who are seeking asylum. Most recently, I've done most of them in the United States, but in past years, I've done a large number for various European countries and for Australia as well. There's an almost complete lack of understanding of the particular vulnerable situation that many categories of people in Afghanistan face. Everybody knows that women are vulnerable, but beyond that, there's not really an understanding. I think the problem of Hazaras as an ethnic and religious minority is first and foremost there.

Some of the interactions I've had, particularly in Europe—because I tend to work much more closely with European immigration officials—as to what's going on, can be quite shocking. Again, something to reference and to show that there has been this recognition would be incredibly important. I think this might bring us back to an acknowledgement of the necessity not only to recognize Hazaras as people in need of protection when it comes to seeking refugee status or asylum, but also to recognize genocide. I think that would be incredibly important here.

That's why I'm so hopeful that this might come out of Canada. Being able to point to a large, very important country like Canada having recognized this and having made this decision, any time you're discussing these sorts of issues or writing these sorts of reports, not just within the context of Canada and Canada refugee issues but also within the United States, Europe, Australia and everywhere else, would have a huge impact.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you for that.

Thank you, Mr. Cannings.

We're now going to continue on to a quick two-minute round, starting with Mr. Baker.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here.

There are people who are perhaps watching at home—some of my constituents perhaps are watching this hearing or are reading about this hearing—who aren't familiar with this and who are learning a lot through your testimony. I'm learning a lot through your testimony. One thing that has been called for is the recognition of the genocide.

I'll turn to anybody who wants to answer this: What would you say to my constituents as to why it's important that we do this? Why is it important that Canada do this?

I have only a couple of minutes, so I'll probably have one person answer that question.

[Ibrahim Mohebi]

I think the most important thing that it brings up is the awareness of what happened in the past. Also, it will add a layer of protection for this not happening in the future.

As you know, the Hazara people have been suffering for centuries. That is still going on. There's also no hope that it will be stopping soon in the future. Right now, as mentioned earlier, in some areas of Afghanistan, Hazaras are displaced; they were forcefully displaced by Kuchis. They own the lands of Hazaras during that genocide that happens. Nobody knows about that unless it is those who are connected with the Hazara people living in Afghanistan. That is an ongoing issue.

The main thing this will bring is another layer of safeguard towards the Hazara community to be protected and to not be targeted. Also, it will change the socio-psychological view and the belief of society, to not treat Hazara people as secondary citizens and to treat them equally, the same as other citizens.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Mr. Baker, and thank you for joining us today. Welcome to the committee.

Now we'll continue with Mr. Aboultaif for two minutes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

I have a question for Professor Chiovenda. Again, I'm trying to nail this on the point where, with the fatwas under King Abdur Rahman Khan regarding attacking the Hazara community because they are Shia, even the Taliban has probably done the same. Why can't we say that this is an attack based on race, more or less? The DNA tells us it's a mix between Mongolian and Turkic. Is that a way that you would explain why the community is...because facial recognition tells us otherwise?

[Melissa Kerr Chiovenda]

In the case of the Hazaras in Afghanistan, we have a situation where religion, race and ethnicity are inextricably entwined. When you see somebody with facial features that appear to be Hazara, there's this assumption that the person is Shia, whether or not that is the case. We know that there are Sunni Hazaras and there are Christian Hazaras. There are others.

We also know there are other Shia Afghans who have not experienced what Hazaras have experienced. Part of the reason, but not the only reason, is that they are more able to blend into their communities. I've known Shia Pashtuns for years, and only after years understood they were Shia, when they told me this.

Hazaras are at this juncture that causes this real, particular vulnerability. In the time of Abdur Rahman, when he issued these fatwas and called upon this, there is evidence that he also used these religious divisions to his benefit but in the end really attacked the entire Hazara community. Initially, he divided the Shias from the Sunnis and kind of got the Sunnis on his side, but by the end of these two years of war, he was clamping down and attacking, enslaving and killing all of the Hazara community. I think we have to see them as linked.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Ms. Kerr Chiovenda. That was helpful.

We'll continue to the next round.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you have two minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I only have two minutes, which isn't much time.

I want to thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee today. I think that what we're doing is vital for the future of the Hazara people. We're laying the groundwork for the next steps.

Ms. Ahmadi and Mr. Mohebi, I'd like you to have the last word. If you have anything more to add or if there are aspects of the issue you didn't get to talk about, now is your chance.

[Shamim Ahmadi]

My last word to the chair, to the committee, would be to please consider acknowledging the genocide of the Hazara people. It will change the situation in Afghanistan. It will change the situation of Hazaras outside of Afghanistan, in Pakistan and in neighbouring countries. It will also change the perspectives of other world leaders on the recognition of the Hazara genocide around the globe if Canada recognizes it.

We believe in the democracy in Canada. We believe in the leaders in Canada who will hear our voices today. You've heard my voice, my story and my struggle, and you also see me—my resilience—and it's not only me. It's all of our community. We are resilient. We are ready to bring change to our community and to the world. Just please end the suffering. Take the initial step to bring the change to our future generations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Ms. Ahmadi. That was very eloquently said.

We're going to continue now to our last round, with Mr. Cannings.

Go ahead, please. You have two minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Rajabi, I'll allow you two minutes to tell this committee what you think Canada and the Canadian government could do to help the Hazara community around the world, but especially in Afghanistan.

[Mohd Rajabi]

We all know and believe that Canada is a world leader in democracy and human rights. As we have all said in this session, we believe that genocide has happened in Afghanistan in the past. Discrimination against the Hazaras and exclusion of Hazara society continue to go on.

It would be very nice, very good, and, I will say, it's going to be Canada's duty to recognize the Hazaras genocide in the past and also to recognize that there continues to be an imminent threat against the Hazaras and that it's possible this will happen again.

That's what I would ask—that the Canadian government or the Canadian Parliament recognize the genocide of the Hazaras.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you for that.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses. On behalf of the committee, thank you for being here, for educating us and for sharing your history and your struggles with everyone here.

To Mr. Rajabi, thanks for being here in person today. Everyone else is here by Zoom.

Ms. Kerr Chiovenda, thanks for joining us. I believe you're in another time zone.

Mr. Karimi, thank you also for joining us by Zoom.

From the Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services, Mr. Mohebi and Ms. Ahmadi, thank you both for being here today.

You're free to continue on with your day.

We have a minor element, to pass our budget for this study. Everyone received it on Monday in their email. It's a total of $7,700 for standard equipment. I'm seeking everybody's approval.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you.

I will share with everyone that our report on Tibetan residential schools in China was submitted to the Commons earlier today—at noon or so—so it's public.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

All right.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, everyone, for being here today. Have a great weekend.

We'll see you all next week, our last week in the Commons until the summer.

Again, to all the witnesses, I wish you well; I wish you strength and everything that's good. Thank you for being here.

We're adjourned.