Evidence of meeting #4 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was humanitarian.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ketty Nivyabandi  Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada
France-Isabelle Langlois  Executive Director, Amnistie internationale Canada francophone
Hillel Neuer  Executive Director, UN Watch
Nury Turkel  Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute, As an Individual
Denise Byrnes  General Director, Oxfam-Québec
Jeremy England  Deputy Head of Regional Delegation and Head of Operation, International Committee of the Red Cross

7:10 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

My thanks to all the witnesses for being here this evening. I feel that it is very worthwhile and very important for us to have this discussion.

My first question goes to Ms. Nivyabandi and Ms. Langlois.

It is difficult not to talk about Ukraine. What is going on today is really very concerning and very serious. As my colleague mentioned, a debate on the issue in the House is being held right now.

The prosecutor at the International Criminal Court is opening an investigation into what is going on in Ukraine. He is already talking about potential war crimes and crimes against humanity, even though the conflict broke out not even a week ago.

You both mentioned it, but could you tell us a little more about your knowledge of what the prosecutor at the International Criminal Court is talking about?

Ms. Nivyabandi, I would first like to have your comments about that.

7:10 p.m.

Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada

Ketty Nivyabandi

I think I addressed this at the start of my remarks. Indeed, what we have seen and what we have been able to document as Amnesty amounts to war crimes and certainly needs to be investigated. In fact, we are calling for the ICC to investigate all these war crimes and crimes against humanity—it's a possibility—but also for a special rapporteur to be appointed for Russia to investigate as well and to report on Russia's human rights violations in Ukraine.

It is clear that, in just a few days, what we've seen is absolutely appalling. We are looking at over 150,000 people who have already fled the country. We have seen children killed, civilians killed, indiscriminate attacks directed to populated areas and cluster munitions—things that are prohibited under international law. All of these crimes are heinous and need to be fully investigated.

I do want to mention something that I think is moving in the right direction. Today, on this case, we saw the emergency General Assembly meeting being convened for the first time in 40 years. I would like to note that in the case of Ukraine, although we're seeing incredible violations on the part of Russia, we're actually witnessing the international system functioning and international law getting into motion. We're seeing a strong response, the kind of response we haven't seen for all conflicts globally, to be honest. I hope this is an opportunity to be able to redress that and to make a shift. We have seen refugees welcomed, actions taken really promptly and sanctions taken very quickly—things we don't see in other crises. I think this crisis certainly sets the benchmark for the future.

7:15 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

The floor is yours, Ms. Langlois.

7:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Amnistie internationale Canada francophone

France-Isabelle Langlois

Briefly, I can repeat what my colleague said. Actually, however, the arms being used are contrary to international law. They are prohibited weapons.

Shelling close to schools and hospitals must also be avoided, according to the law of war. The invasion of Ukraine itself, under false pretences, is in complete contradiction of international law. The situation has violated international law ever since it started.

7:15 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you.

I would like to talk about another subject that is happening right now. Raïf Badawi was imprisoned 10 years ago today and he should therefore be released. I don't think that he has been just yet; we would have found out.

Ms. Langlois, what can we do and how can we tackle this issue from now on? What is happening and how can Canada respond?

If Mr. Badawi is released in the coming weeks or the coming months, how can Canada become involved so that Mr. Badawi can come to this country and join his wife and children?

7:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Amnistie internationale Canada francophone

France-Isabelle Langlois

Thank you for the question.

We expect Mr. Badawi to be released sometime between today and June. Depending on whether our normal calendar or the Muslim calendar is used, the release date should be either today, February 28, or in June.

We are quite sure that he will be released because, in the last 18 months, human rights defenders imprisoned in Saudi Arabia and whose sentences have been served or who are under some arrangement, really have been released. However, the word release is in quotation marks because, once they are out of prison, most, if not all, of them are prohibited from leaving the country for between 5 and 10 years. In Mr. Badawi's case, the prohibition is for 10 years.

We are optimistic that he will be released, but we have to keep up the work. Canada must continue to demand that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia let Mr. Badawi come to Canada. He is not Canadian, but his wife and children live in Canada and they are Canadian now. Canada can add its weight to the scales, as other countries are also doing. The pressure for Mr. Badawi to come here must be maintained.

7:15 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you, Ms. Langlois.

I will move to a situation in another country now because I do not have a lot of time left.

I would like to talk very specifically, about the case of Lazhar Zouaïmia, a Canadian citizen from my constituency, who was arrested in Algeria, at Algiers Airport, last week. He has two visas, but the Algerian government does not recognize his Canadian visa, which is not right in itself.

In recent weeks and months, the Algerian government has been imprisoning people that it suspects of terrorism. Actually, they are just working for democracy in Algeria.

How could Canada respond in order to secure Mr. Zouaïmia's release?

7:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Amnistie internationale Canada francophone

France-Isabelle Langlois

First, Canada must speak out loud and clear in support of the Hirak movement in Algeria. Algerians have been bravely fighting for democracy for three years. There have been a lot of imprisonments and long, unjustified sentences. That should be a concern to us, first as a diplomatic issue.

Second, Lazhar Zouaïmia is Canadian and Canada must deal with him as it would with any other Canadian. It must do everything possible to get him out of that situation.

7:15 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you so much, Ms. Langlois.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

Thank you, Ms. Langlois.

Welcome, Mr. Boulerice. You have seven minutes.

7:20 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Actually, in seven minutes, it will be difficult to ask questions about the human rights situation around the world. It's a big job, you might say.

I will start with Amnesty International's very interesting report on the human rights situation in Palestine. It's not the first report of its kind. Human Rights Watch has done similar work before.

In 2018, I had the opportunity to be part of the Canadian parliamentary delegation that visited the occupied territories on the West Bank. We had a lot of meetings with people from civil society and with those representing various organizations. We were able to see first-hand the military occupation, the checkpoints, the wall, and the daily humiliations that the Palestine people are subject to. That does not get into the headlines. There may not be explosions, war, or shelling, but people are subject to frustration, humiliation and contempt. There are all kinds of examples: the need to completely surround a city, the terrible situations in Hebron, the destruction of houses and farms to make way for illegal settlements.

Ms. Nivyabandi and Ms. Langlois, I would like your comments on what you have observed for four years. You used the word “apartheid” to describe what Palestinians are going through.

Can you give us some concrete examples of what you observed?

7:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Amnistie internationale Canada francophone

France-Isabelle Langlois

Ms. Nivyabandi, do you want to answer that question?

7:20 p.m.

Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada

Ketty Nivyabandi

Certainly.

I'll answer in English. Thank you for that question.

I just want to point out that often when we hear “apartheid”, I think people associate it immediately with South Africa, with the context of South Africa. It's important to note that apartheid looks different in different situations. In international law, what it actually means is a systematic, prolonged and cruel discriminatory treatment by one racial group of members over another, with the intention to control the other group.

What you're pointing out is indeed part of what we have observed over the past four years. My first call would be to encourage you and this committee perhaps to do what you did a few years ago, to go and visit. I will give some examples of the system that we've observed.

For instance, there have been severe movement restrictions in the West Bank. There is a network of checkpoints and road closures with permit systems which force Palestinians who want to visit other areas of the occupied Palestinian territories to seek the permission of the Israeli military. We've seen the denial of nationality to Palestinian citizens of Israel or the systematic denial of building permits to Palestinians in East Jerusalem, and the expansion of illegal settlements in East Jerusalem as well. This is why we extend our definition of apartheid beyond Israel and the OPT to displaced Palestinians. The denial of Palestinian refugees' internationally protected rights to return.... Israel bars Palestinian families who have been displaced for generations from returning to their former villages. We also see restrictions on access to land and fishing areas in the Gaza region, for instance.

There are statistics that speak to this in more detail. We look at all of these elements together rather than in a fragmented manner, including the crimes of forceable transfer, detention and torture, unlawful killings and injuries, and the denial of basic rights. When all of these crimes and systems are put together, the pattern of laws, policies and practices then amount to apartheid under international law, the definition that it has in the apartheid convention and the Rome Statute.

That has been our approach and our conclusion.

7:20 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you very much, Ms. Nivyabandi.

I also saw some quite distressing things in Palestine. Palestinians could not take some bus routes and highways. I would not have believed that I could be seeing something of the kind at the beginning of the 21st century, not just in Israel, but in any democratic state, where one would think that human rights are protected.

What really shocked me were the arrests and trials of Palestinian children by Israeli armed forces. We met a group of lawyers defending those children, those teenagers, arrested for causing a slight disturbance or for throwing a couple of things.

Is that part of your analysis of the human rights situation in Palestine, Ms. Langlois?

Can you give us some more details about it?

7:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Amnistie internationale Canada francophone

France-Isabelle Langlois

Yes, I can certainly tell you a little more about it.

Actually, I will back up my colleague's comments. People are humiliated on a daily basis and the repression is out of proportion to the reality.

A huge number of young people, and adults too, find themselves in prison on all kinds of pretexts and the justice they have to face is arbitrary. The list is long, but the cases of adolescents and children are particularly heart-rending.

7:25 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

You have 10 seconds, Mr. Boulerice.

7:25 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Okay.

Thank you, everyone.

7:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

At this juncture, on behalf of the entire committee, allow me to thank all three of the witnesses not only for their testimony but also for their time. We're very, very grateful.

If the members will allow, we will suspend for five minutes to do sound checks for the next set of panellists.

Thank you.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

We can resume now.

For this segment and for the second panel, we have two speakers.

Regrettably, we had technical challenges with the witness from the International Committee of the Red Cross, but we will proceed with Mr. Nury Turkel, the vice-chair of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, and Ms. Denise Byrnes, the general director of Oxfam-Québec.

Just as a reminder, for translation, you have the globe at the bottom of your screen.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

Could we ask that if we are able to connect with the ICRC, we could interrupt and hear from them, if they can get on?

Thank you.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

That makes eminent sense, for sure.

We will start off with Mr. Nury Turkel.

Welcome, Mr. Turkel. You have five minutes for your opening testimony.

February 28th, 2022 / 7:35 p.m.

Nury Turkel Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am honoured to be here.

Thank you for inviting me to testify on this important topic, which has been my expertise and focus of my professional and, I would say, personal life.

I am the vice-chair of the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, after being appointed as a commissioner by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi in May 2020, but today I am testifying in my own capacity as a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute, where I specialize in foreign affairs, global justice and human rights issues.

I am cognizant of the critical time at which this important hearing falls—

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

My apologies, Mr. Turkel, but the interpreters are having some challenges. Could you move the mike further up, please?

Thank you.

7:35 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute, As an Individual

Nury Turkel

I'm cognizant of the critical time at which this important hearing falls. The current crisis in Ukraine represents a critical juncture. We have to come and battle between liberal democracy and the growing spread of authoritarian brutalities.

I'm deeply inspired by the bravery of the Ukrainian people resisting Putin's aggression and invasion. The Canadian government has played a key role ensuring accountability for human rights violators and a full mantle of the responsibility, which has not been assumed yet.

The response over the past five days to Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine is a demonstration that we can muster willpower and tools to fight these bad actors. This is the same vigour that should have been applied to the crisis I want to highlight today, the Uighur genocide, which could have been stopped a long time ago had we done so. Where is the utilization of global sanctions? The pursuit of justice must be equally applied to malicious state actors like China. We have just recently observed the aftermath of the Beijing 2022 winter games, another stain on human history.

As the international community, the IOC, sponsors Beijing's standing in front of the entire world. This genocide has been ongoing for years following the warning signs and buildup to the genocide that we likewise ignored in favour of the willful naïveté that insisted on believing that China would reform under the CCP.

This thinking is ignorant of reality and recent history. Irreparable damages to the Uighur people are already a reality, given the tepid, disastrous and slow international response to this staggering 21st century high-tech genocide. Millions of Uighurs have been interned in concentration camps and factories, where they have been utilized as slave labour for major global and international corporations. Thousands of mosques have been destroyed. Uighur children are no longer being born, as forced abortion and sterilization have been utilized to wipe out the next generation. The Uighur diaspora remains cut off from their loved ones living in the so-called free outside world while bearing the agony of constant fear and the burden of survivors' guilt. All the while, they are frequently directly tormented by the Chinese regime itself with its calls and [Inaudible--Editor] Uighur existence. There is no place beyond the regime's grasp, including Canada. Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin are not the mere instigators of the chaos in our world; they are symptoms of deep-rooted problems the likes of which must be addressed with courage and conviction.

I personally can attest that China is not a good faith actor with which we can continue to believe that typical diplomacy will work. As we look back on history, we can see that refusing to counter bad actors and dictatorial regimes only emboldens them. The incentive structures for Chinese officials, for example, as well as for international organization corporations to provide cover for the Chinese regime must be broken.

Canada, alongside allies and partners, must follow 2021's joint sanction and apply them broadly to all Chinese Communist Party officials tied to the Uighur genocide. “Never again” must be a reality. The time has come for Canada to impose real consequences on the handmaidens of Xi Jinping. We cannot fail to ensure that the horrors the Uighur people have undergone do not expand and are not repeated and targeted at other vulnerable groups such as the Muslims in India.

[Technical difficulties—Editor] increasingly down an Hindu-nationalistic path, vulnerable minorities are at risk. Today we're experiencing genocide in China. Who will know which vulnerable religious ethnic groups will be next? In India the environment has already begun to resemble that of an oppressed one such as the one created by the Communist Party in China. They are targeting religious groups, particularly Muslims, in India.

When we look at issues like this compounding global challenges, they require collective and individual responses from liberal democracies. Canada has been a strong partner in the efforts to address the genocide, including in the UN and with coordinated sanctions early last year, but Canada could do much more.

To begin, Canada could create a refugee program and accept 10,000 Uighur refugees from a third country. The urgency of this issue has become more and more apparent as Uighurs all over the world who have managed to escape are at risk of deportation back into the hands of the murderous regime in Beijing.

As Canada strives to combat climate change, recognize that 48% of the—