Evidence of meeting #3 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was conflict.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
For the second round of questions, each member will have only five minutes.
We'll start with Fred Davies.
Mr. Davies, you have the floor.
Conservative
Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON
Thank you, Chair.
The conflict between the SAF and the RSF, with de facto lawlessness, groups operating with impunity, numerous attacks on civilian infrastructure, the massive displacement of millions of people and the overwhelming humanitarian catastrophe, has finally I think captivated the attention of some of the world, but there appears to be no clear road map for peace.
The humanitarian crisis is worsening, with evidence of summary executions and mass killings of civilians. I'm at a loss to see the pathway and any semblance of security.
Dr. Babb, as governments around the world are dealing with uncertain economies and the disruption from the U.S., the more I read or try to understand here, the less I really know, and I am somewhat discouraged. Can you tell me, in your view, what you think Canada should do right now to help mitigate this war?
Director of the Promised Land Program and Strategic Adviser to Doctors Against Racism and Antisemitism, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
Thank you for the question. I'll keep this brief.
Canada, as my colleague Mr. Unruh noted and as others will know, has had a presence in Sudan for decades, I believe since at least 2005. In recent years, though, our presence abroad in conflict zones has been very contained and restricted. In my view, the immediate concern is to stop the suffering and to stop the violence, the killing and the sexual violence. This means increasing that presence, probably in terms of a peacekeeping operation of some sort, something where we seem to have lost our way, to a certain extent.
Roughly 30 years ago, Canada had somewhere in the range of 3,500 people deployed on peacekeeping operations. I think right now that there are about 20. I think we have maybe nine people in Sudan. My figures could be off slightly, but probably not by a lot. Peacekeeping operations really offer a unique opportunity that most other exercises do not, in bringing together groups that have great differences but are able to find common ground when it comes to peacekeeping operations. That could be a pathway here.
Conservative
Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON
Thank you.
You just indicated that Canada has nine people on the ground. To suggest that Canada has any capacity for peacekeeping, to inject it into this territory right now, is pretty unrealistic. We have a lot of investment to make in our own military, our own peacekeeping forces and our own capacity and training to understand on the ground what that means.
Beyond that, Canada's role is still fuzzy to me. I'm just looking for some guidance on where else you think we could be useful.
Director of the Promised Land Program and Strategic Adviser to Doctors Against Racism and Antisemitism, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
Right.
In Canada's Africa strategy, we highlight the growing threat of terrorism in Africa, and terrorism is probably more pronounced in Africa than anywhere else in the world, actually. We could seek out ways to bolster our counterterrorism operations and activities in the region to make it harder for bad guys to do bad things.
As my colleague here, Mr. Medani, noted, there are somewhere in the range of over a dozen countries that are, to varying degrees, involved with this conflict. We could find ways there, diplomatically, to bring people together.
Conservative
Fred Davies Conservative Niagara South, ON
To pick up on that, Dr. Babb, you're suggesting that the multilateral approach is probably the most useful at the moment.
In terms of nations that are actually involved, getting involved or should be involved, what is the level of co-operation and communication now between countries that want to help bring an end to this war?
Director of the Promised Land Program and Strategic Adviser to Doctors Against Racism and Antisemitism, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
I can speak to that briefly. I believe there are probably others who are better suited to speak to that—perhaps Mr. Medani or others.
Director of the Promised Land Program and Strategic Adviser to Doctors Against Racism and Antisemitism, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
Canada has a well-oiled machine when it comes to these multilateral efforts. We do have people who have been doing this for a very long time, and there are a variety of actors, as I noted, who are quite active in the region in one way or another. There's no shortage of opportunities for us to get out there and interact with these people and bring people together. The more we talk with one another, hopefully the faster we can bring an end to the human suffering.
Liberal
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you so much to the expert witnesses today. I'd also like to acknowledge members of the Sudanese Canadian community who are here in the room watching. I know that many of you likely have family and have gone through terrible times in the last two years.
One of the things that we would note about this horror that is happening in Sudan is that it is both the worst humanitarian crisis in the world, as many of you have stated, and also one of the least covered. It's one that I think, if more Canadians knew about it, we would be seeing a lot more outrage about it and a lot more desire to help.
With that, I'd like to start with you, Professor Medani. You said something that was very interesting about the population in Sudan, which is that there are civilians who are protesting, that there are people who are trying to empower themselves to act on this.
I would also note that just this week we celebrated the 25th anniversary of Security Council Resolution 1325 on women, peace and security. I worked on a project at one point with women in the Horn of Africa to find ways for them to be able to empower for peace.
My question is starting with you and then Ms. Langlois and others who wish to answer. How is it that we can empower both civilians and women in Sudan, because we look at women very much as the victims. They are victims of horrible atrocities, but they can also be agents for peace and agents of change? How do we empower those women, whether it is to collect forensic evidence that can be used in international courts, whether it's ways to create local governance or whether it's at the peace table?
What can the international community do to help empower the women of Sudan?
Associate Professor of Political Science and Chair of the African Studies Program, McGill University, As an Individual
I'm going to say something counterintuitive and maybe ironic. In the region, both in Africa and the Arab world, Sudan historically has been known in the contemporary period as the one country with the strongest civil society.
That, I think, you saw in the revolution itself, the popular pro-democracy revolution. The reason I make that point is that the best way Canadians can help is to work with what is there. There is capacity, including in Darfur, with journalists and others. There is a siege, a lack of communications, but a journalist just recently said, “Can you give me a number of a journalist in Darfur?” I called a friend and I gave her the number. There are veterinary doctors in Darfur. There weren't in the first war when I was there. There are female activists in Darfur. They are doctors, journalists, professional.... I can give you a list. I have them in my notes.
There are a number in Sudan themselves, and what is really important about the folks sitting behind me is that the mobilization of the Sudanese diaspora globally is very strong. There are many initiatives.
Finally, I just want to say, and not to be too academic about it, that in all the wars—Liberia, Sierra Leone, Rwanda—you will see that in the process of implementing peace, civil society is crucial, not peripheral but crucial in actually setting the agenda, implementing the peace and the ceasefire, and of course, building peace as occurred in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Rwanda. We're not talking here about the type and quality of the regimes but about what happened at the end of the war.
Finally, if you don't mind me saying because I have Sudanese here, in terms of what Canada can do, multilateralism is crucial and key. That is how other conflicts have ended, and you'll see movement now, if you want to follow the Quad more.
I would be remiss if I did not also say that there are many refugees and many Sudanese Canadians who would very much appreciate, as Canadians and residents here, if the pathways to coming and reconciling with their loved ones would be expedited. There are many details about that. This does not counter the immigration policy of the country but rather really is one of the central humanitarian aspects of Canada's policy, which is so world-renowned.
I really want to make sure this is a concrete something that Canada can do, maybe not today but certainly tomorrow.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you very much.
I only have a little bit of time.
Ms. Langlois, perhaps you want to add to that, particularly in terms of human rights defenders.
Executive Director, Amnistie internationale Canada francophone
Thank you.
Actors must strengthen existing mechanisms and support the arms embargo. They must support the International Criminal Court and humanitarian aid organizations working on the ground.
Humanitarian aid must reach the people. Everything possible must be done to relieve the situation. Necessary steps to resolve the conflict must be taken as quickly and diplomatically as possible.
Indeed, Sudanese society, both here and in Sudan, can help find ways forward.
We have the tools of international diplomacy at our disposal, and we must use them. Do we have the will to do so?
Canada can. It can play a leading role.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you, Ms. Langlois.
Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, you have the floor for five minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to pick up where I left off about who is buying the gold.
Mr. Medani, it looked like you wanted to speak to that.
Associate Professor of Political Science and Chair of the African Studies Program, McGill University, As an Individual
Yes, you're going to get us in trouble. I don't know who's purchasing gold personally. In the case of Sudan, I want to emphasize that the gold is smuggled. That is a really important aspect—90%. Sudan is the third-largest exporter of gold in Africa and the 12th-largest in the world. Given the gold prices now, which are unprecedented since the seventies, the pressure to extract gold is really a big burden on Darfurians. That's why my friend mentioned it directly.
It's very important to understand what kind of gold is imported. It's smuggled. The reason that's important—I think my colleague was mentioning it—is that there are ways of persuading, not only through coercion but also through diplomacy, the United Arab Emirates to follow international regulations when it comes to the gold trade. The majority of it goes to the Dubai markets, to Abu Dhabi, in the Emirates. That's not a secret. That's well known. Some of it has ended up in Russia, through Syria, but most of it goes to Dubai.
The point here is that, number one, it's smuggled. Therefore, the campaign to regulate it is really crucial. That can be done through coercion and through diplomacy to follow the international property rights associated with the trade in gold.
The other thing is the way gold is done in Sudan. This is important. It's artisanal gold. The people who are actually excavating the gold are some of the biggest victims in Darfur, in Kordofan and in many regions. They should not be penalized in the campaign for gold. They need to be part of a transition, a security sector reform, and those are the mechanics, the kinds of things that Canada is so good at, because they've actually worked with respect to truth and reconciliation and peacebuilding. You have academics here in Canada who are experts on this issue.
The principle of “do no harm” in the context of regulating gold and making sure it's not used for recruitment is crucial. The artisanal gold miners are the ones who are the most vulnerable. They have very little to do with the leadership of the Rapid Support Forces.
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you for your excellent remarks, Mr. Medani.
Mr. Lawson, you told us that your teams have left and returned several times, that you're trying to set up wherever you can. I'm sure your teams are exposed to violence or, at the very least, threats.
What additional protection are you asking for?
Actually, what protection do your teams and medical facilities have in the field now?
What additional measures are you requesting to provide better protection for your teams and medical facilities in the field?
Humanitarian Representative to Canada, Doctors Without Borders
I mean, the protection we have as a humanitarian aid organization is actually the fact that we are a neutral, impartial and recognized aid organization. This is the protection we have everywhere we go. It's the work that we do. It's the fact that we deliver medical care, impartially, to anyone who needs it. This allows us to negotiate access into many places where we work.
In North Darfur in particular right now, as I said and as you highlighted, we had to evacuate from El Fasher. We had to evacuate from Zamzam. It is just another demonstration that the basic humanitarian principles that underpin international and humanitarian law, that underpin the idea of a global humanitarian sector in the first place and that underpin the idea that an organization such as ours is actually capable of delivering medical aid and assistance where it's needed most are being completely undermined. This is a very clear example. We're watching it unfold in real time.
It's also not the only example. We have come under attack in many other conflict zones in many other parts of the world. We're seeing a gradual, I would say, but probably accelerating erosion of the basic principles that should protect humanitarian assistance and protect neutral and impartial humanitarian care.
In answer to your second question, about what should be done, this is why it's worth reiterating that these principles, the basic principles of IHL, need to be upheld. Canada, as a member state of the international community, needs to be at the table for just upholding international humanitarian law and finding a way, as my colleagues here have already mentioned, for violators to be held to account. This requires some of that same multilateral work. It also requires work with the close allies who've been mentioned in other ways here. It's central. It's central to not only the specifics of the conflict we're seeing in Sudan right now but also to the very idea that when there are humanitarian emergencies, assistance and humanitarian aid can reach the people who need it.