Evidence of meeting #3 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was conflict.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Majumdar.
Mr. Zuberi, you have the floor for seven minutes, please.
November 3rd, 2025 / 4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here and to the many in the audience today from the Sudanese community who have come in person to witness this committee in action.
Professor Medani, you were about to add some points to your concluding remarks. I want to give you a moment to add any other points you have, and then I'll continue with my line of questioning.
Liberal
Associate Professor of Political Science and Chair of the African Studies Program, McGill University, As an Individual
Thank you. That's very kind of you.
There are two points I want to make. One of them is not only to propose a special envoy for Sudan and the Sahel region, but also to fold it into Canada's Africa strategy, which was released in March. I think it can really buttress that international security piece, that component of it. As you know, that report was very much a transition. One of its new aspects was an emphasis on diversification for Canada, particularly with respect to trade and investment. I don't want to reduce this awful conflict to that. It's the place I'm from. However, I do think it's really important to highlight that. Sudan is very important for Canada, for that region and for the Sahel region.
Another thing to discuss, to conceive of or to contemplate is a Sudan working group in Global Affairs. That was a working group the Canadian government had in the past, and it can bring people together, particularly the expertise.
The final point is to really return to the practical matter of the Quad. I can discuss the transition and the reality of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is very different from Iran, for religious, ideological, strategic and economic reasons. However, I think it is really important, practically, for the Canadian government to consider what is going on with the Quad.
The framework itself has been reaffirmed by the African Union and by IGAD. Boulos, the special adviser to Trump, recently said that there is a second phase, the transition phase after the three-month truce, being discussed at the moment, and that is to bring in Qatar, Turkey and other countries. I think it would be useful, and it's something to think about, for Canada to be a really participatory actor in that particular phase because it has a great deal of experience in humanitarian intervention and peacebuilding.
I want to emphasize, finally, the issue of really bringing Sudanese civil society together as part of the transition, which is how conflicts usually end. That is very important. The majority of Sudanese are not Muslim Brotherhood. In fact, millions of them went to the streets, actually, to overthrow the Muslim Brotherhood regime, so we want to side with the Sudanese people, like those sitting behind me, like myself and others, and with those who are friends of Sudan.
Thank you.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you.
I have about four minutes left.
Professor Medani and Professor Unruh, you both have an academic specialization in Africa and have extensive personal experience and academic experience. I was curious about your thoughts on sanctions and on individuals who are involved in the conflict and the warring, locally.
What has been their effect in the past? Do you think they're salutary? Should Canada give an eye to this, to sanctioning individuals in the conflict?
Associate Professor of Political Science and Chair of the African Studies Program, McGill University, As an Individual
I think that, in the past, it's been a mixed bag.
Certainly, the implementation of sanctions against Omar al-Bashir actually hardened the regime. It didn't help that there were, of course, other sanctions that affected the entire country—American and European sanctions. In fact, that's what occurred after the revolution. There's a long story of what that did to the majority of the Sudanese population.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
I'm speaking more about targeted sanctions towards individuals.
Associate Professor of Political Science and Chair of the African Studies Program, McGill University, As an Individual
I think targeted sanctions are very useful in the context. I think they're extremely useful. I think they're being utilized and have been, and I think that's one of the reasons both parties are actually coming to the table, despite the fact that they're saying they're not.
Absent rigorous political negotiations, they actually will not have a role, but I agree—
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
You're suggesting sanctions, but coupled with rigorous political negotiations.
You've both testified that Canada can play a contributing role in encouraging negotiations. Would you want to testify to that at all?
Associate Professor of Political Science and Chair of the African Studies Program, McGill University, As an Individual
I would testify to the sticks that need to be implemented in addition to some carrots, depending.... That's number one. Yes, I would testify to that. However, that's why I gave this big speech about the Quad and negotiations and taking that seriously.
Liberal
Associate Professor of Political Science and Chair of the African Studies Program, McGill University, As an Individual
Lastly, I also think it's very important that Sudan.... The U.A.E. is a very important actor, but there are upwards of 14 countries actually involved in the arms supply in Sudan.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Can you speak about the actors behind the conflicting parties? I'd like to get down to the kernel of that, if you can.
Associate Professor of Political Science and Chair of the African Studies Program, McGill University, As an Individual
The United Arab Emirates is directly but mostly indirectly buying the arms that are funnelled to the Rapid Support Forces. The United Arab Emirates has a number of different interests in Sudan and in Africa in general. This is what is being worked out by the Quad. We can discuss that. It's not really about Sudan; it's an Africa strategy. That's really important and cannot be underestimated.
On the other side, the Sudanese Armed Forces is getting arms. They're not from Iran. Iran did, in the early period, give them drones, but these are from some of the most important and powerful countries you wouldn't even guess, including, for example, Turkey. In addition to that, there are other smaller countries like Serbia that you would be shocked to hear are also involved.
The Sahel region is not just about actors funnelling these kinds of arms. The biggest problem is really small arms supplies. The trade across the Sahel is what people have to focus on. What that requires is expanding the arms embargo that remarkably only applies to Darfur, as if that is the only part of the conflict.
Everyone is calling for a rigorous expansion of the arms embargo. That should be part and parcel of the Quad's relationship or discussion, because the fifth point of the Quad, if you saw the statement—and, of course, someone read it out here—is really about agreeing, at least in rhetoric, that external intervention, including arms flows, undermines the process towards peace in Sudan.
We should take that at its word and try to build on that to expand the arms embargo. There's a great deal of support in the United Nations unanimously for that, and we have to try to work it out and evade the Security Council in some way in doing that. There are precedents to do that. You don't have to wait for Russia and China to veto it. There are other ways to implement and expand the arms embargo.
John, you wanted to add—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you. I'm sorry. The time is over.
Thank you, Mr. Zuberi.
Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, go ahead, please.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank all the witnesses for being here. I would also like to thank Ms. Langlois for being here with us.
Mr. Lawson, you mentioned severe acute malnutrition, including among adults. That points to a total collapse of the survival system. We know that hunger is also used as a weapon of war.
Can you tell us more about your most recent findings on this?
Humanitarian Representative to Canada, Doctors Without Borders
Thank you for the question.
Once again, I apologize that my colleague Michel‑Olivier Lacharité is not here to answer questions, as he is the director of emergency services at Doctors Without Borders.
It's to say that, yes, indeed, it's quite clear, and it's been quite clear for a long period of time now. We have been, in our own capacity of providing medical care, seeing incredibly high numbers of malnutrition. We already know, of course, that the famine designation is around the Zamzam camp. We already know the IPC designation.
You picked up on the fact that we're also seeing adults arriving at our facilities in states of acute malnutrition. I would like to highlight how abnormal that is. In most of the work we do in terms of providing medical care to malnutrition cases, these are usually children under the age of five. The fact that we are now seeing such a high number of adults arriving at our facilities in Tawila who are also suffering from malnutrition really speaks to the impact of this siege.
Again, this siege has cut off essentials from the population inside El Fasher. It's emblematic of the way that a lot of this war has been conducted. It's worth pointing out that these extreme levels of malnutrition point to the deliberate impediment and blocking of life essentials under this siege as part of the way this war is being conducted.
Again, I'll just return to the point that we know that this is a violation of international humanitarian law and that this is something we established decades ago should not be a part of a conflict situation. There should be protections for civilians. There should be no blockage of something as essential as food. Turning food into a weapon of war is the kind of activity for which there need to be consequences for these violations.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Earlier, you told us that your facilities are located about 60 kilometres from El Fasher and that you take in the few people who manage to flee El Fasher.
Are you gathering testimony from the people who have managed to flee? If so, can you share their stories?
Humanitarian Representative to Canada, Doctors Without Borders
Yes, what we're hearing from the people who are arriving from El Fasher are the reports of targeted violence. We are hearing, as my colleagues have also mentioned, about high incidences of sexual violence and of people being targeted in the streets. We are not witnessing these directly ourselves. This is what we are hearing from our patients who are arriving.
I want to pick up on something that you mentioned. We're quite alarmed about the relatively low number of people who are arriving from El Fasher in Tawila. Tawila is 60 kilometres away. The people who are arriving at our facilities are in incredibly poor states of health. It's also an incredibly small number. It's in the hundreds so far—the people we have seen.
Coming from a city the size of El Fasher, these numbers do not add up. There should be more people arriving. We should be seeing higher numbers, but we're not seeing them now. This is a cause of grave concern because it indicates that people are still trapped in El Fasher or are simply not getting out. This is, again, a cause for significant alarm.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Ms. Langlois, it seems to me that the crisis in Darfur in 2003 to 2008 attracted a little more attention from the international community. This particular crisis has already lasted far too long. We started hearing about it because the city of El Fasher fell.
Why do you think the international community and the international media have paid so little attention to this crisis?
Executive Director, Amnistie internationale Canada francophone
Thank you for your question, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe.
Indeed, 20 years ago, Darfur was getting more attention than it is now. Other crises around the world aren't getting much attention either. Everyone is focused on the situations in Palestine and Ukraine.
The power of the international community is in decline. In general, it is turning a blind eye to what is happening around the world. The Trump administration's disengagement from international and multinational aid is having terrible consequences. We are already seeing this on the ground, especially in Sudan. It is important for countries like Canada to turn the spotlight on the situation in Sudan.
I will reiterate what my colleagues said. This is the most serious humanitarian crisis at this point in time. Civilians are being caught in the crossfire. They are being threatened with starvation, which is being used as a weapon of war, along with sexual violence against Sudanese women and girls.
That is why Canada must stand up as a champion of international institutions, multilateralism, and humanitarian aid.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Ms. Langlois.
Mr. Unruh, you mentioned Sudanese gold, which has a lot in common with what are known as blood diamonds from Sierra Leone and several other regions.
Who is buying that gold?
Professor and Director, Department of Geography, McGill University East Africa Field Studies Semester, As an Individual
Can you say that again?
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Who is buying Sudanese gold these days?
Who are the buyers? Ultimately, they are keeping this war going and causing it to escalate because of the profits involved.
Professor and Director, Department of Geography, McGill University East Africa Field Studies Semester, As an Individual
Definitely, there are profits. Gold is one. The territorial control over Darfur by the RSF would enable other forms of profit.
There is some understanding that international actors—the U.A.E. among them—own, operate or lease very large areas of agricultural land in and around Darfur. The retention of that land speaks to the insecurity of some of the wealthier, smaller Arab and other states with regard to feeding themselves. What they want is access to very large areas of agricultural and other economically valuable land.
Corridors of movement can be taxed. They can be captured and held as choke points. There's a very large economic aspect to this. At the same time, there are international tools, very specific ones, designed specifically for such blood workings fuelling armed conflict that can be used. Some of them originated here in Canada.
Canada should be very good at pushing very hard on some of these international constructions that can stop the flow of, say, gold, and that can divert attention and choke off money coming from agricultural land and various other interests. I might argue that the situation—