Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2025

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you, Professor Medani. As do so many of our colleagues, I thank you for being such an articulate voice for the policies that are at play, as well as for the community that is represented physically with you here and around the country, which is obviously paying very close attention to how Canada grapples with these issues.

I have a few questions about the background that you have in this space. You have written extensively about informal markets, youth militancy and extremist ideologies. Much of that is being focused in Sudan today. In your mind, what big economic factors would play a bigger role in the extremist ideologies that are appealing to Sudan's youth today?

If I could extrapolate a little further, the Quad statement has indicated a future for Sudan that, to your point, would include civil society, the private sector and the local informal private sector, hopefully to the benefit of the governance of the people. In the wake of such exhausting violence, how do you see the economy of Sudan benefiting the people of Sudan and being more appealing to build a country that's prosperous rather than disintegrating again into extremist and fanatical factions that are bent on war with each other?

[Khalid Medani]

The blueprint is there in the transition for Sudan.

First of all, thank you for your nice comments. I am always proud to represent my country. I can tell you that's a generational thing. We all represent our country, and I'm proud to represent other countries I'm a citizen of.

In this particular case, in the transition after the revolution, there was discussion about answering this question. Civil society decided at the time to go about dismantling what stood in the way of what you're talking about, that is, the distribution of public goods in a way that may not necessarily bring happiness, let's say, but would bring stability. This was to actually go about dismembering or dismantling the deep state.

In all of these countries, the sheer violence or state violence is usually owed to two things. One of them, of course, is ideology and this obsession with power, but that cannot be prosecuted without a dominance of the domestic economy, both commodities and financial markets and all of that. The state violence you see is executed and prosecuted by the state. What to do is to go about—and this is written by Sudanese—dismantling that part of the economy that is actually under the hegemony and monopoly of just a few people in the state. This is the reason the war started.

I know there is a lot of discussion about why the war started. It started for one reason: The Sudanese population wanted to dismantle the corruption. Imagine a war that starts for that singular reason on the part of both parties, because that's the only thing they agree upon, that they refuse to dismantle their great profits.

What does that mean? It means democracy has to be promoted, and it means an economy that may not be equal for everyone but certainly an economy that is not dominated by a singular state. That can be done. It's done elsewhere. The Sudanese have a blueprint for it. I'll send it to you if you want. This is why the war began, so we have to return to that and deal with it.

The recruitment of militants is a different thing. You can read my book, but that's a socialization thing. They're not as strong as you might think in Sudan. They're weak. They're hanging on for dear life, utilizing their allies in the military establishment because they no longer have support in civil society beyond militias that they have just recently expanded. They have been unable to recruit.

I'll stop there.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you. I think I have about a minute left.

In that context, in some of the literature that you've provided and the work that you've done, you've described how Islamist local leaders exploit these resources to promote themselves.

How do we build a future in Sudan that lays that in the dustbin of history and allows the Sudanese people to live in pluralism with each other?

[Khalid Medani]

My goodness, you should be paying me.

The problem with looking at the Islamist movements globally and the Muslim Brotherhood.... I know there is a real interest in the Muslim Brotherhood for a lot of reasons.

The tension is usually at the leadership level. The leadership level is not so different from others. My interest has always been to look at the youth and the rank and file. When you look at why they join these organizations, you'll find mostly secular reasons, issues of underemployment more than employment and issues having to do with trying to make a life, a social life, in the context of deep economic and even political crises. The answer to that, usually, is to provide those kinds of things absent the ideological manipulation of a few leaders.

I know that I've been criticized in the Middle East region for being too sympathetic to the young people being recruited. I'm not sympathetic to their ideology, but I'm sympathetic to their social and economic conditions because that's something we can do something about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Professor Medani.

Mr. Zuberi, you have the floor.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, again, to the witnesses for being here and to those in attendance who are from the community.

I wanted to talk a bit about the Quad. You mentioned the Quad a number of times. It consists of the U.S., Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. On September 12, they came out with a road map that would calm the situation. They were hoping, at the time, that it would last three months. We find ourselves in the situation we're in.

You've also suggested, Professor Medani, that Canada contribute to multilateral efforts to calm the situation, to quell the fighting and to protect people. How do we enter that conversation when the Quad already exists? Aside from what you said about a special envoy, how else do you suggest that we enter that conversation?

[Khalid Medani]

The conversation can be entered outside of the Quad. It's being entered by Turkey and by other countries. It can be entered with Canada's relationship and good offices with the European Union, which it's working very hard to improve for a variety of reasons. It can be utilized even with countries that Canada is having discussions with, including China, for example, which has a big interest in the region, in Sudan.

I think we can enter through its other allies. It also has relationships with African countries. That becomes a really important entry point. I'm not sure why Canada would not also enter into something and prioritize peace over other tensions. Those things can be compartmentalized, and that, I think, is important. I want to mention that Canada could also really do something that the Quad is unable and unwilling to do, and that is to include civil society.

The problem with the Quad is that they have different strategic interests, which is clear, but among Sudanese, it's partially controversial. It looks like a colonial project. No Sudanese are involved. There is no civil society involved. No one is sure what is going to come out of it without Sudanese civil society being included. I think Canada can make the case that civil society as part of these negotiations is really important, and hopefully, Canada and others can facilitate that. There are many civil society initiatives they can build upon.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Certainly.

Now flipping to civil society, Mr. Lawson, you're with Médecins Sans Frontières. Can you speak about your activities on the ground? What do you know of civil society on the ground, and what are the contributions to being a productive actor in this humanitarian situation?

[Michael Lawson]

For some of the MSF activities on the ground, we do as we normally do. We're the providers of emergency medical care. We run our own health facilities. We work in conjunction with the ministry of health and with other actors where possible.

What's worth pointing out, for this context specifically, is the essential nature of the civil society organizations that exist on the ground right now. When we've talked about malnutrition and about the difficulty of access to food, a huge factor in the ability to do any food distribution has been the local soup kitchens, the local organizations. This exists somewhat outside the norm of the usual response in a lot of these sorts of contexts and conflicts.

I think it's worth pointing out the huge gap between the humanitarian needs and the ability of the international humanitarian sector to meet those needs. This is coming at a time when we've seen immense cuts overall to humanitarian assistance funding and to international aid. In some ways, that has affected activities and response efforts in Sudan directly. In other ways, it has been indirect, but the result is the same. There is a lack of a big international assistance response, so we do see a reliance on the smaller, more nimble, more effective local organizations.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

The humanitarian assistance that Canada provides, then, is critical in calming the situation.

[Michael Lawson]

Absolutely. The humanitarian assistance that Canada provides is essential in this context and in virtually every other humanitarian context.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

My last question is for Professor Medani.

I'm sure you're familiar with the refugee program that's exclusively for Sudanese people who have a connection to Canada. There are 716 who are now safe and secure because of the program that is in existence. There are 7,300 who have been prioritized by the immigration department.

Do you think that program is important in terms of making a contribution in this humanitarian crisis on the part of Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Excuse me, but your time is up.

You have about 20 seconds. Please be quick.

[Khalid Medani]

I have to answer that.

[Witness spoke in Arabic]

[English]

I was born in Lebanon, by the way. That's another thing we'll talk about.

That is a push by the Sudanese Canadians in the diaspora in their hundreds, if not thousands. That answers your question. I was only a spokesperson in some elements of that. It was also in the interest of other Canadians, including the Canadian media, who felt it was the right thing to do because of Canada's ethical values and also because the Canadian government had done it for the Ukrainians in the Ukrainian war and for Latin Americans as well, even though the numbers are much higher and it's expedited much more, with less bureaucratic sluggishness. There are so many people waiting in line, and bureaucratic issues have arisen to the point where it's frustrating. Some Sudanese have died in Sudan, failing to come up....

You have Sudanese Canadians here who have a whole list of effective ways to make it much more efficient and guarantee Canada's security and protection. All of that is laid out. I'm not the one who is leading that, because I stay in my ivory tower. The real Canadians are the ones who can come and do it for you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Professor Medani.

Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lawson, you're not the only one who has talked about the humanitarian aid budget. Several other people have talked about it too.

First of all, Ms. Langlois said that budgets for international aid are shrinking dramatically, not only in the United States, but in all wealthy countries.

Canada is hardly exemplary in this regard, because it allocates around 0.28% or 0.29% of its GDP to international aid. Since 1970, the United Nations' target has been 0.7%. We are nowhere near that target.

That said, I would like you to answer my question very objectively, because my goal is not to engage in politics at this time. It may seem that way, but that's definitely not what I'm doing.

I will put my questions to Mr. Lawson first, then Ms. Langlois and the McGill University representatives can answer.

Clearly, we can see willingness on the part of Mr. Carney's new government—as they like to call it. It wants to link international aid with international trade. That is no secret; they have been public about it. Moreover, the two departments share a parliamentary secretary.

In the context of the crisis we're discussing today, to what extent can the government's desire to link international aid and international trade have an impact on the ground in different areas, particularly in Sudan?

Could you tell us objectively whether their move to link these two issues is a viable long-term policy?

[Michael Lawson]

From our perspective, the purpose of humanitarian assistance funding and of international aid is to address humanitarian needs. That is the only reason for it. When we see people who have been cut off from access to care and life essentials, people who are exposed to suffering as a result of conflict or disaster or crisis, this is the reason that the humanitarian sector exists. This is the reason that our organization exists. The reason for humanitarian assistance funding is to alleviate the suffering of people who are caught up in crises. That is the only fundamental reason, from our perspective, that humanitarian assistance is needed, and that should be the motivating force behind Canada's ongoing commitment to providing relief for people who are caught in humanitarian crises.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lawson.

Ms. Langlois, would you like to add anything to that?

[France-Isabelle Langlois]

Linking humanitarian aid to trade policy is extremely worrisome.

However, it's not a new approach. It has been around for at least two decades, if not three. The trend is significant.

During that time, governments have invested more and more in the military and defence at the expense of humanitarian aid. Those two sectors should be completely separate.

Underfunding humanitarian aid will inevitably lead to humanitarian crises and conflict around the world. This approach will lead to a very dangerous spiral.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Unruh and Mr. Medani, can you please answer the questions I asked the other two witnesses?

[Khalid Medani]

I think the coverage of Sudan and what's happening in El Fasher remind us that humanitarianism is a real thing globally. Going away from the normative impulse, I can only answer that in the first war in Darfur, I was in El Fasher and Kabkabiya and I saw what your organization was doing, including the mobile clinics.

That is done not because of economic interest but because of sheer humanitarianism. If the Canadian population or the government feels that this is no longer of value.... My students would disagree, but I don't know if that notion of supporting and helping people who are dying is no longer a value in its own right. Most people in Canada are immigrants, and many remember their great-grandparents or others who suffered in these kinds of wars. I went to high school in Germany, and my German friends have a very vivid memory. That's why they, or at least the population, tend to have empathy. That's really important. The government is something else.

Having said that, whether it's USAID or others, if you want to talk to policy-makers on the other aspect, yes, sure, you'll find that aid—not humanitarian aid as such but aid in general—has been linked directly to trade. USAID is clear about it, and I'm sure Canadians and other countries are, outside of humanitarian aid. That is a different story. I think that non-exploitive aid and trade are on equal terms.

What Africans would like in general is something to consider. If policy-makers feel that different types of aid would promote trade for Canada, sure, that's open to discussion and that is how the world is organized. I think Canada would benefit from greater trade in Africa, but I'll leave that up to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you. That puts an end to our question and answer period.

On behalf of the committee members, myself, the clerk and analysts, and the interpreters, we would like to thank all our witnesses for being here. We heard very good answers to good questions. I also thank everyone in the room.

Hopefully peace will prevail not only in Sudan but around the world.

Thank you. We'll take a minute to allow us to go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]