Evidence of meeting #24 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreement.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Brodrick  Project Manager, Mayor of High Prairie, Buchanan Lumber
David Milton  President, Ontario Lumber Manufacturers' Association
Guy Chevrette  President Executive Director, Quebec Forest Industry Council

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon, everyone.

We'll start this 24th meeting of the Standing Committee on International Trade. Today we are dealing with the softwood lumber agreement signed by the governments of the United States and Canada on July 1.

We have as witnesses today John Brodrick, who is a project manager from Buchanan Lumber and also Mayor of High Prairie, Alberta--thank you very much for coming, Your Worship--David Milton, president of the Ontario Lumber Manufacturers Association; and from the Quebec Forest Industry Council, Guy Chevrette, president and executive director.

We will start, as usual, with short presentations. Please limit these to six minutes for each member. Then we'll go to the questioning, which will take place in the same order as the names appear on the list.

Mr. Brodrick, go ahead, please.

1:40 p.m.

John Brodrick Project Manager, Mayor of High Prairie, Buchanan Lumber

Thank you very much.

Before I start my presentation, I would like to clarify my position here today. I am the current mayor of High Prairie. I am, and have been, employed in the forest industry in Alberta for 40 years. I sit on the board of directors of the Alberta Forest Products Association as an alternate on the Alberta Softwood Lumber Trade Council. My views expressed here today are my own and lean towards my concerns as mayor.

High Prairie is a northern Alberta town that relies heavily upon the forest industry in the area for its economy and, in a large sense, its survival. The area's two forest manufacturing plants employ approximately 400 area citizens, and this number balloons to 600 to 700 in the winter harvest season. These two companies account for $22 million in wages alone in our community, and another $40 million in purchases and contracts throughout the area.

Good afternoon. Thank you for asking me here today, deadline day. I am not sure who put my name forward for this presentation, but hopefully you feel the same way after my presentation. You have heard many different views on the softwood agreement that's before us today. I will rehash some of what you have heard before you from the government, lumber associations, trade councils, companies, and individuals, but I also hope to cover some new ground, if that's even possible.

First, let me say that this is not a deal that will bring peace to the Canadian industry. At this time, I would like to bring forward my concerns with the agreement.

Yes, this is a long-standing thorn in the side of the industry, and will continue to be if the two-year opt-out clause is allowed to remain in. The federal government has always maintained that they would not accept a deal at any cost. Why have they abandoned this crucial part of the negotiations at this time? A payment of a half billion dollars to the very companies that brought this action against our industry ensures that Lumber V is only an opt-out clause away.

In draft copies of the agreement circulated between April 27 and before July 1, $250 million was to go towards the joint initiatives fund benefiting the North American lumber market. In the July 1 edition of the agreement, this amount was reduced to $50 million, a very paltry sum. Also, $10 million of the $50 million of this money was to be allocated for dispute resolution, thereby leaving only $40 million to enhance the North American lumber market. In the draft copies, $250 million was to go towards meritorious initiatives in the United States identified by the U.S. government in consultation with Canada. In the July 1 agreement, this increased to $450 million. So now we are helping the coalition once again, and the very communities where they operate and live, at the expense of our own communities here in Canada.

The fact that this agreement forces a company to sell their product and then at some time in the future they will be notified if they are in surge territory and will have to pay an additional 50% levy on the whole volume shipped in that period makes gambling in Las Vegas very attractive. If this agreement were signed today, under option A the industry would give up paying 10.8% and replace that with 15%, and possibly 22.5% if the surge mechanism is triggered. In today's market, this will be the death of many companies in the industry and will bring hardship to communities such as ours. Under option B and with today's market, Canadian companies would be restricted to 30%, not 34%, of the American market. Expect to see our lumber being turned away at border crossings.

Prime Minister Harper and his Minister for International Trade rushed to get this agreement in place as a political coup, and not as a business arrangement. That's where this whole deal falls apart. It is ever so easy to get a bad deal. It takes true statesmen and strong negotiations to get a good deal. Canada is winning all the major battles in litigation, and while holding four aces, we decide to fold. We must be the worst poker players on earth. A negotiation entails give and take from all parties. In this case, we give, the Americans take.

At this time, I would like to address a few of the statements made by certain officials of our government.

Mr. Harper has stated that this deal is the best ever for Canada, and that rejection would condemn the lumber industry to perpetual trade warfare. In fact, this agreement is what will guarantee perpetual trade warfare. An American industry initiates a trade action against a Canadian industry, and the following happens: the American industry for five years enjoys unheard-of profits because of the inflated market caused by their trade action; all their legal fees are paid back to them fivefold to tenfold; the communities that they operate in are beneficiaries of a $450 million windfall for ball diamonds, soccer pitches, etc.; and their inefficient industry is guaranteed 66% to 70% of their domestic market, with no competition.

This deal in no way leads to free or fair trade. At the end of this agreement, be it two, seven, or nine years--and in my opinion it will be two years--we will be entering Lumber V. Meanwhile, don't be surprised when other American industries reach for this American dream, financed by Canadians, and start their own trade actions.

The reason this trade dispute has had such a long life is simply the fact that we have never gone that extra mile and secured a total victory, such a victory as we now have within our grasp.

As for Minister Emerson, your time spent in heavy-handed negotiation and threats to the Canadian industry to walk away from this file would have been better used to get Canada a deal that we would all readily support and sign.

I have spoken to CEOs in Ontario, British Columbia, and Alberta, and I fail to find one who likes this deal. Instead, their comments are along the following lines: “I can't fight the Americans without the federal government on my side”; “If I don't sign, what will happen the next time I submit a request for approval to Ottawa?”; and “I don't want to be the only one holding out, but I can't find out what other companies are doing”.

So even if this deal goes ahead, it should be recognized for what it is--a very hollow victory that was obtained using questionable methods. This agreement will guarantee mill closures, and towns throughout northern Quebec, Ontario, and Alberta will see their unemployment numbers rise and their economies fall like never before.

In closing, I would like to thank the committee for the invitation. Also, I hope to see a full House when this agreement comes before Parliament.

Thank you.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Brodrick.

To Mr. Milton next, please.

1:45 p.m.

David Milton President, Ontario Lumber Manufacturers' Association

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the committee for inviting me to appear here again. Although my association has a continuous and significant agenda involving the forest industries of Ontario, nothing is more important than the proposed settlement of the dispute with the United States over softwood lumber, and I am grateful, therefore, for the opportunity to be able to address you.

I speak, of course, only for myself and my association, but I suspect the leaders of other trade associations share my distress when we are the frequent focus of a government assault on critics of the proposed agreement. It seems odd, but apparently necessary, to begin with a reminder: trade associations exist to bring common views in a collective position; heads of associations represent and speak for their members. Members do not always want to speak individually, and they look to us to represent their views faithfully and reliably. If we were not doing our jobs, we would be replaced. The government might have noticed that none of us—the heads of the trade associations across Canada—has been replaced. When the government tries to divide us, saying it must speak with real decision-makers or that the real decision-makers and the trade association heads have different views, it does itself and us a disservice. It replaces a search for truth with demagogy.

We speak for our members and we say what they want us to say.

When I appeared before you on May 31, I noted that my members were not averse to a deal, that the history of deals on the softwood lumber was not a happy one, and that the April 27 basic terms left a bit too much to the imagination. We would need to know a lot more before we could make an informed position on the deal.

We do know a lot more now, although I'm amazed how few of the questions I asked back in May have been answered. Here are some examples: Can Canada's overall market share in the United States under the deal exceed 34% because of the Atlantic provinces, which under the current terms are permitted to export to the United States every piece of softwood lumber manufactured there? Or, because British Columbia might opt for a graduated export tax and pay it in order not to be limited in the quantity of lumber it can ship, and assuming Ontario accepts a quota, will Ontario's volume of lumber shipped to the United States diminish because British Columbia may increase its shipments, restricted only by the export tax?

We still don't know, even after we have the so-called final text, how quotas in one province may be affected by export taxes in other provinces, but we do know that we are to be monitored monthly and that the operating terms—the so-called running rules—are not commercially viable. We know that provinces opting for quotas will likely never fill them, because we're in a seasonal business and the running rules impose severe penalties for exceeding quota in any given month.

We also know that the end of litigation means the elimination of our legal victories. When I appeared on May 31, I emphasized how important it was to us that those victories be preserved. We know now that a dispute resolution mechanism excludes the industry altogether, making us completely dependent on the Government of Canada to protect our interests for the duration of the agreement. We know that the duration has changed, that the deal is no longer for seven years but for two years, and that for those two years, and a year's standstill, which is not long enough to protect us from the dumping that follows inexorably, we will pay $1 billion. And although the language of the April 27 agreement led us to believe that about half of that money would go to a joint initiative that might help the industry to cooperate with the industry in the United States, we know now that only about $40 million will be committed to such an enterprise and that $450 million will perhaps be the largest foreign aid package ever received by the United States, going to the President for him to spend pretty much as he pleases.

The Prime Minister and Minister Emerson have been telling everybody that the July 1 final text is faithful to the April 27 basic terms—only better. They say we will get more money back, without mentioning that because of the suspended extraordinary challenge, we're paying more money in, so that of course we're going to get more money back.

They say we will get it back faster, but they don't emphasize that we get it back faster because we get it from the taxpayers of Canada as an advance, and that the taxpayers of Canada are also advancing a billion dollars to the United States. It's not necessary to make a deal with the United States for the Government of Canada to advance us the duties the law says belong to us. In fact, we only ever asked for loan guarantees, which would not have cost the Canadian taxpayer anything.

So we know more now, although a lot less than we ought to know. It has not made us more enthusiastic.

The government says it was the best it could do, the best anyone has ever done. It is not the best anyone has ever done. As defective as the earlier efforts at managed trade might have been, they were better than this one. They were at least attempts at commercial sense; they had policy exits; we didn't pay a fortune for them, let alone a fortune to our opponents so that they can reload and in three years fire at us at will.

Enough of the propaganda and the face-saving; it's a very bad deal. Yet the OLMA has members ready to accept it because the threats of the government are impressive: no future help, no cooperation, no negotiations.

I said last time I was here that a lot of companies in Ontario would go out of business. That's more true than it was back in May. We're going to suffer. Taxpayers will have to help, more after failure than now while we have been succeeding.

The government has said on the one hand that NAFTA victories get us leverage to negotiate, but on the other hand that litigation has gotten us nothing and should be stopped. You can't have it both ways. We think the government failed to capitalize on the leverage.

Minister Emerson told this committee on July 31 he was surprised to get as much as 80% of our money back. Why? On April 7 the United States Court of International Trade ruled that the U.S. industry was not entitled to any of our money—not one penny—no matter what else might happen in the litigation. Then 20 days later, the government promised the United States' industry $500 million of our money and another $500 million for foreign aid to the United States, also of our money. Since they were not entitled to any of the money at all, and we're giving them a billion dollars, shouldn't we have gotten something more than two years of highly constrained managed trade in return?

I'll finish with still more questions. Will Parliament rescue us and give us immediately, as its first order of business when it returns next month, the loan guarantees that will enable us to finish the fight? Will it insist upon reinvigorating NAFTA instead of abandoning it? Will it promise to work with the industry instead of bullying it? For if Parliament will not do these things, we will capitulate to the deal—not support it or endorse it or cheer it, but we will capitulate to it—because we see no future and we have no choice. We ask Parliament to give us that choice.

Thank you.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Milton.

Mr. Chevrette, president and executive director of the Quebec Forest Industry Council, go ahead, please, with your presentation, sir.

1:55 p.m.

Guy Chevrette President Executive Director, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Madam Secretary of State, Members of Parliament, allow me, to begin with, to introduce the Quebec forest industry and in so doing, show you that practically nowhere else is there an industry of such complexity.

We have both integrated and non-integrated companies, very large producers and very small producers. We also have large, very large and very small exporters. The softwood lumber sector currently includes some 110 members. We have border companies that use American timber almost exclusively and others that get almost all of their supply from Crown land in Quebec. We also have companies that operate in several different Canadian provinces.

I would say that about one quarter of the timber supply in Quebec comes from private wood lots. That gives you an idea of what the Quebec industry looks like and what that means for the people involved in it.

On April 27, a very large majority of our members voted in favour of the draft agreement, primarily because it promised seven years, plus an optional two years, of peace. There were other reasons as well. The fact is we were given to believe that flexibility would be part of the agreement, among other things.

On July 1, we changed our tune. We voted against the agreement and proposed four amendments. We shouldn't really call them that, if I understood what Mr. Wilson said this morning; we should instead be talking about minor changes or improvements. But whatever name we give them, the fact remains that we made four quite important points relating to the termination clause, the flexibility of the rules on exports, the anti-circumvention provision, and the measures relating to remanufacturers.

There were discussions—I won't say “negotiations” because I want everyone to be happy… However, in the letter Mr. Emerson sent our members, we noted the following improvements, clarifications or changes. I'm mentioning them because they did affect the vote taken on August 18.

First of all, we believed that a six-month, rather than 30-day, notice period was an improvement. For example, that kind of timeframe meant it would be possible to carry out awareness campaigns and outreach activities aimed at changing people's views. In any case, in this kind of battle, we believe six months notice is preferable to 30 days.

Also, the addition of a twelve-month period to the existing seven-year term—in this case, a further standstill after seven years — is an improvement, in our opinion. As regards the committee which will be looking at flexibility, we feel quite confident about that because we know that the Americans are already aware of flexibility issues as they relate to the export rules. We want to be able to honour our commercial contracts, and there is nothing really complicated about that. It doesn't cost anything. In fact, we are authorized to sell timber annually, and we see no reason why we should have to put up with these kinds of hassles on a monthly basis.

We believe that a committee acting in good faith could easily arrive at an agreement on this specific issue. Also, it is our intention to be active and positive participants in the work of this committee. We hope to be involved. In fact, Mr. Wilson's comments this morning lead us to believe the industry will be very closely involved in the flexibility committee's work. So, we have great hopes of being able to do that.

As regards anti-circumvention, I must say, to be perfectly candid with you, that we had less trouble explaining all that this would entail to the Americans than we did to our Quebec representatives. In our opinion, the anti-circumvention provision should apply specifically to softwood lumber, and not to the forest management system. Just before concluding my opening statement, I will explain the important difference between the two, as we see it.

If we leave a term such as “forest management system” in the legal text of the agreement, nothing would prevent the Americans, or even the government of a province, from using that to refuse any change in the management system, even one that has nothing to do with softwood lumber. On that point, we were unable to secure assurances from the governments concerned that a clarification would be added to the agreement to state that it only applies to softwood lumber. However, the Americans did give us that assurance. As a result, we were willing to place our trust in them on that point; I say that quite candidly. As regards the remanufacturers, we simply dropped our request, as did the other national associations.

On August 18, the Quebec industry considered whether it would be better to accept a somewhat imperfect agreement or not have an agreement at all. The consensus was that we should accept the imperfect agreement, for a whole host of reasons. I will be happy to explain if someone wants to ask me that question. In Quebec, we are experiencing a major structural crisis. As one speaker said a little earlier, production costs are huge, wood fibre is the most expensive in the world, as are chips as well. So, we are going through a very serious structural crisis at this time. It is absolutely unprecedented. It is no longer a cyclical crisis solely attributable to the Canadian dollar. That is not the case. There are much more profound reasons for what we are currently experiencing. The federal government alone cannot resolve the structural crisis; our government must also take steps to address this issue.

In closing, we will soon be sitting down to look closely at this negotiation and take stock. I have to say that as far as the process goes, I think we need to look at ourselves in the mirror. The process is neither fish nor fowl. On April 27, our representative told us it was take it or leave it. But in spite of that, we waited and we were successful. During the morning of April 27, the CIFQ managed to get an agreement that calculations would not be based on one year only, but rather on an average covering the period from 2001 to 2005.

On July 1, we were again told we could take it or leave it. And yet we have been able to make changes since then—what might be called improvements to clarify the text. But there have been minor changes.

The fact is we cannot operate on the basis of ultimatums. Nor is it appropriate, in a process such as this, to be constantly taking advantage of the plight of an industry. I think we are going to need to sit down and talk about developing a much smarter and more meaningful process.

In closing, I want to say that I, personally, am very anxious to see the day when free trade will be something other than trade in legal services. I'm also anxious to see whether governments, which will have to develop mechanisms to manage the export rules, will see fit to avoid making the ground rules overly technocratic. If they do, it will cost an industry which is already having trouble making ends meet even more.

Thank you.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you all.

We'll go directly to questions now. We go to the official opposition, to Monsieur Proulx.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Brodrick, Mr. Milton, thank you very much for your presentations.

I'll address my comments and questions to Mr. Chevrette and one of my colleagues.

Thank you.

Good morning, Mr. Chevrette.

Before I go any further, I would just like to quote from a press release issued on April 28 by the Quebec Forest Industry Council. It says:

Finally, the CIFQ is asking for confirmation that, as soon as the proposal has been accepted, any deposits that may have to be made at the border until the final agreement is implemented will be refunded at a rate of 100 per cent, and not 80 per cent.

Can you briefly tell me whether you were able to get agreement on 100 per cent reimbursement?

2:05 p.m.

President Executive Director, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

No, the rate remained at 80 per cent. As I said earlier, a whole host of reasons prompted people to vote the way they did. Some were just completely fed up and disgusted with the whole dispute. In other cases, their financial position is extremely weak. And as you know full well, others still have just asked for protection under the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act. For them, these deposits will be a shot in the arm. Some people believe it's an excellent agreement for all kinds of reasons. I have heard a whole host of reasons given. If you ask me tomorrow morning what the main reasons for the positive result…

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Could I ask you that today, rather than waiting until tomorrow?

2:05 p.m.

President Executive Director, Quebec Forest Industry Council

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

And what is the main reason?

2:05 p.m.

President Executive Director, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

Today, I would say it is primarily the fact that the industry in Quebec is having financial problems and that many members believe this agreement will be a shot in the arm. That is probably the main reason. For them, getting the money back quickly is a matter of survival.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

So, it's a short-term solution.

2:05 p.m.

President Executive Director, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

I believe you're right to think that given the current structural crisis, there will still be some restructuring in Quebec. Some companies will survive for a few extra months. However, that will not solve the structural crisis. Again, your point is well taken.

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Mr. Chevrette, could you comment on the flexibility of option B and tell us what you're asking for, what you would have liked to see, and what you see in this agreement now?

2:10 p.m.

President Executive Director, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

In terms of a mechanism, we had to explain it to quite a few people.

For example, you can borrow from the previous month if you have used the full volume you were allocated for that month, just as you can borrow a certain percentage from the coming month; I believe it is 12 per cent per month. But in order to be able to honour commercial contracts, we requested a compromise, namely that we be allowed at least three months before and three months after, and that we would seek to develop an appropriate mechanism.

The goal is to ensure that companies abide by their annual quota. We could demonstrate that allowing the entire quota to be exported is an act of faith. If the thousand and one complexities related to monthly standards mean a company loses 10 or 15 per cent of its export volume, we are no longer really talking about free trade. That is my personal opinion.

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Mr. Chevrette, initially we were told $4 of the $5 billion would be paid back. At the time it was deemed to be fairly reasonable to pay the $1 billion, since it meant buying peace for a period of five to seven years. But the reality is that peace is not even guaranteed for two years. You heard what Mr. Wilson said this morning. According to him, the six additional months that were secured to prolong the notice period are included in the 24 months. So we're talking about 18 months of peace.

Do you think that it is reasonable to sacrifice $1 billion for 18 months of peace?

2:10 p.m.

President Executive Director, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

On that point, our members have different opinions. Some say it will cost just as much to wait two or three more years. That's the calculation some have made. Personally, I have said so often that's a lot of money to pay per week that I can't deny it. In fact, Mr. Proulx, you may even have a press clipping that talks about that. So, I'm going to be consistent and say that in my opinion, that's a very high price.

Furthermore, Mr. Emerson's letter states that the Americans intend to make a firm commitment as to their intention not to prematurely terminate the agreement. I've negotiated my whole life and I believe that good faith is something that you take for granted initially but that must be proven subsequently.

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

You feel comfortable because you've negotiated with the Americans and they understand you when you're talking about softwood lumber. But am I also to believe that the Americans will give you what you want without Canada making the request?

2:10 p.m.

President Executive Director, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

Based on what was said this morning, I'm assuming that adding a clarification in the agreement does not systematically require an amendment. Rest assured that I noted that fact. Indeed, I have every intention of obtaining the Minutes of Proceedings.

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

We'll be very pleased to provide them.

Now, before I'm told to stop, I want to ask a hypothetical question. If there were loan guarantees in place and the government continued to provide assistance with litigation, do you believe there would be support for the agreement? Would you like to keep going?

2:10 p.m.

President Executive Director, Quebec Forest Industry Council

Guy Chevrette

Would the result of vote have been the same? Well, I can tell you that there would not have been as broad a consensus if there had been real loan guarantees in place. The previous government had said it would provide such guarantees following the election. Since it lost the election, we were never able to benefit from that program. We went to see Mr. Bernier, who told us he would have to consider that it was part of his budget. I personally met with Mr. Bernier. He told us he couldn't do it and that he preferred to negotiate. But I think you're right: the result of the vote would not have been the same.

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Unfortunately, the Chairman is preparing to cut us off. So, I will let someone else have the floor, and come back later. Thank you for your candour and honesty.

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Monsieur Paquette, go ahead, please, for seven minutes.