Evidence of meeting #6 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Terry Pugh  Executive Secretary, National Farmers Union
Andrew McArthur  Chairman, Shipbuilding Association of Canada
George MacPherson  President, Shipyard General Workers' Federation
Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Carmen DePape
Ton Zuijdwijk  General Counsel, Trade Law Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Dean Beyea  Senior Chief, International Trade Policy Division, International Trade and Finance, Department of Finance

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

We'll begin, ladies and gentlemen.

This is the sixth meeting, of this session, of the Standing Committee on International Trade.

Today we'll continue our review of Bill C-2, An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association.

We'll begin today with witnesses from Irving Shipbuilding. We have Andrew McArthur. Its nice to see you back. Thank you for coming. And from the Shipyard General Workers' Federation, we have George MacPherson, president.

We will begin with an opening statement, from one or both, if you'd like, for 10 minutes, followed by a round of questioning. As usual, the questions will be seven minutes for questions and answers.

We also have Mr. Terry Pugh.

Can you hear my voice, Mr. Pugh?

9:05 a.m.

Terry Pugh Executive Secretary, National Farmers Union

Yes, I can.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

There you go.

We were going to have Mr. Pugh via teleconference, but we have him via telephone.

Just for your information, Terry, you're coming across through speakers in the room. I hope you will be able to hear all of our speakers as well.

We will begin with Mr. McArthur.

You have up to 10 minutes for opening remarks.

9:05 a.m.

Andrew McArthur Chairman, Shipbuilding Association of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I must say at the outset that I am vice-chairman, retired, from Irving Shipbuilding, but I still do some work for them. But I'm chairman of the Shipbuilding Association of Canada, so today I will present the position of the Shipbuilding Association of Canada. Unfortunately, I have no written notes. I was quite happily playing golf in Florida when you called and asked whether I could be here, and it's so cold I'm going back tonight.

I welcome the opportunity to come and talk to you. I think we've been talking about EFTA for seven years, at least, that I can remember. I dug out some correspondence, and we sent letters as the association to the government, dated January 2002. We're now in March 2009 and nothing much has happened.

The position of the association has never wavered from day one until today. I got a call that quite amazed me—I think it was from Mr. Julian's assistant, and if I am wrong, I apologize—saying the position of the association was that EFTA as it stands is okay. I say that is not correct. The position of the association from day one is that shipbuilding should be carved out from EFTA. We have been told categorically time and again by the government that we do not carve industries out. We raise the question of the Jones Act in the U.S., which was carved out from NAFTA. We are not allowed to build or repair for the Americans. The Americans have free access to our market. So industries do get carved out. I'm sure there are numerous other examples.

The association therefore said, “Well, if you're telling us categorically that you will not and cannot carve it out, we don't understand why, but let's make the best of a bad situation.” We started discussing a situation where I think it has ended up that shipbuilding is not carved out under the present proposal, but there's a 25% import duty on vessels coming into the country from the EFTA countries, and that would be phased out over a long period of time. I'm going from memory. I think it was agreed it would be 15 years, and it may be longer for some different types of vessels. We said that's the minimum we can do it with. It would give the industry time to reorganize, hopefully, and do different things. We said to be effective and to give industry a chance, things had to change.

I'd like to go back a bit in history to the mid-1980s. I think it was about 1986 that the government of the day started a rationalization program. There was recognition by industry and the government that there were too many shipyards in Canada to have a sustainable, ongoing, viable industry. The government therefore started a rationalization program. Shipyards were closed out west. Shipyards were closed in the Great Lakes. Shipyards were closed in Quebec. Not much happened in the Canadian Maritimes because at the time Saint John Shipbuilding was building the Canadian patrol frigate program and obviously was not a category to be closed, and the Halifax industry was quite busy, so there was no rationalization on the east coast. But the industry downsized to a size that could survive.

The problem is, to this day nothing much has happened. The whole concept of saying under EFTA that we need 15 years of the subsidy being gradually reduced over that period of time was to give the industry a chance to rationalize, reorganize. The industry today is basically down to the Washington Marine Group on the west coast; there's major shipbuilding out there. You have Halifax Shipyard, a division of Irving, in New Brunswick. You have Davies in Quebec, which is now the biggest yard in the country since Saint John Shipbuilding closed a few years ago. You have a small yard in P.E.I., which is also owned by my company, and a small yard in Newfoundland, in Marystown.

The industry has really progressed. If there are many more closures, the industry is virtually going to disappear.

What we continue to say to the government, carrying on with the thought on EFTA, is that given the 15 years to get the industry to a sustainable size, we today have the perfect opportunity to do that. Many programs are coming up. You have the arctic offshore patrol vessels, the midshore patrol vessels, the joint support ships--many billions of dollars to be spent.

The rationalization program that started in the mid-1980s should now be completed. There are three centres of excellence. You have the Washington Marine Group on the west coast, and just by chance it falls into place. It wants to do the smaller types of ships, the midshore patrol vessels, for example. You have Halifax that will do mid-size, which are the arctic offshore patrol vessels. Davies will do the bigger vessels, the joint support ships.

If the government would recognize and create three centres of excellence, people would say it's allocation. That's correct, it's allocation. Many countries in the world have gone to allocation. The U.S., the Brits, the French, the Germans, and the Australians have done it, and today, to have an ongoing viable industry, that is the correct way to go. You then have centres of excellence that can become very competitive. The industry has said we will have total open books, fuel audit, profit limitations. You tell us what you need and you will find you have an ongoing viable industry. The government has said it wants to create jobs quickly. There is no easier way than to follow the proposal we have sent to the Prime Minister from the Shipbuilding Association of Canada to proceed with centres of excellence.

That may seem to be far away from EFTA, but it's tied to the point that the association said we need 15 years to get a viable ongoing industry. The import duty gets diminished. The industry can then stand on its own two feet, and if you do that and follow it, you could process the contracts much faster.

I was at a meeting yesterday for the arctic offshore patrol vessels. They're talking about the bid coming out in October. Six months to bid it, contract negotiations, and then contract probably awarded August 2010. You then have a minimum of a year's engineering and various things, so you might start in August of 2011. If you went the way the association is proposing, you could probably sign a contract for a-ops by August and start cutting steel the following year. So if you want to create jobs, and you want to do it quickly, follow on what started with EFTA, give the industry a chance to rationalize, create centres of excellence, and we could be off and running, and you would have an ongoing, sustainable, viable industry that the country needs.

We have the longest shoreline in the world. We're a small maritime nation, however, and to think shipbuilding would disappear in this country is untenable. We need an industry. We talked to the navy. Our Halifax shipyard is right next door to the navy. We talked to the admiral and asked what they are going to do if we close. I don't know. We have the fleet maintenance facility on both coasts; they're strapped. They cannot do all the work if we disappear. You cannot sustain industry on ship repair. You need new shipbuilding technology. That's where the technology is. That's what attracts the people, and you need that to sustain the repair industry. The navy accepts that. They're worried as hell if we disappear. What are we going to do to repair our ships? So you have to do something. You have to do it quickly. It all started with EFTA seven or eight years ago. We've talked this way ever since. It's by coincidence with yards closing that we've arrived at this situation I described today whereby it's logical to have three centres of excellence.

Other shipyards will say they're left out. That, in part, is true, but all the major shipyards have said we would agree to spread the wealth around. If we get the work, we will subcontract work to the other shipyards.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. McArthur.

We will now go to Mr. George MacPherson, president of the Shipyard General Workers' Federation.

9:15 a.m.

George MacPherson President, Shipyard General Workers' Federation

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appear before you today to represent approximately 2,000 skilled members of the Shipyard General Workers' Federation of British Columbia who work in the shipyards, in marine manufacturing and supply industries, and in metal fabrication shops in British Columbia's coastal communities. Except for a few medium-sized shipyards, the majority of marine and metal manufacturing plants in B.C. are small operations supplying capital goods to the local market.

I'm here to echo what many other representatives from the transportation and metal manufacturing industries have said before me, and that is that we are strongly opposed to yet another free trade agreement that seriously threatens to undermine the viability of our manufacturing industries in our province and country.

First, I would like to once again say that we are very appreciative of the undertaking of your committee to conduct extensive hearings on the implications of the free trade agreement currently being negotiated between the Government of Canada and EFTA, and we appreciate this opportunity to make this presentation.

One of the objections we have to Canada-EFTA negotiations is the complete absence of any prior consultation with our industry representatives before the formulation of Canada's trade agreement proposals. We also object to these negotiations proceeding before there's been a full impact assessment, with participation by labour unions and civil society groups, of the economic and social impacts of the standard FTA model on workers in Canada. One would be led to believe, from reading the documents on the government's website concerning these EFTA negotiations, that there's nothing but positive results from such an agreement. But we all know from our experience with NAFTA and subsequent FTAs that this is just not the reality and that there are all kinds of serious negative consequences, especially for Canada's struggling manufacturing industries, our workers, and our communities.

Our marine and metal fabricating industries in British Columbia have been already seriously undermined by NAFTA through elimination of the 25% tariff on ships imported from the United States and Mexico. Norway has become one of the world's leaders in ship construction with the help of their government, and U.S. shipyards have had a significant unfair advantage from Jones Act protection in recent years, a heavily subsidized naval reconstruction program.

In addition, we have suffered the serious loss to a German shipyard of four B.C. Ferry corporation contracts to build large new car and passenger ferries for B.C. coastal waters. Choosing to enter into a similar FTA with EFTA, the Government of Canada will drive yet another stake into the heart of a viable Canadian shipbuilding and marine manufacturing industry. But this stake, in comparison to others in the recent past, has all the signs of being the fatal one.

For our sector, the issue is not about forcing the Canadian shipbuilding industry to become more competitive so that it's able to compete in an export market for new or rebuilt ships. Canada has never been a significant exporter of ships and never will be. Without the current 25% tariff on imported ships, Canadian shipyards will never be able to compete with Norwegian, Korean, Japanese, and Chinese shipyards for the supply of vessels to the Canadian maritime industry. Therefore, for us the issue is about sustaining a viable heavy manufacturing industry in this country to supply just the domestic market and to protect it from the destructive forces of competition from subsidized major exporters of marine transportation equipment. If our government does not do this in these EFTA negotiations, our industry will be all but dead in a matter of a few years.

The Canadian shipbuilding industry is already operating at about a third of its capacity. Canadian demand for ships over the next 25 years is estimated to be worth $40 billion. Under the proposed FTAs with Norway and Iceland, and the planned FTA with Korea and then Japan, these Canadian shipbuilding jobs are in serious jeopardy. In these terms, this government plan is an absolute outrage.

As stated by the president of the Shipbuilding Association of Canada, it is impossible to envision anything positive for the Canadian shipbuilding sector in a Canada-EFTA unless significant changes are made to the Canadian government's shipbuilding policies, both federal and provincial. Without tariff protection, Canadian-built government procurement policies, a comprehensive industrial strategy, and other domestic industry supports, an FTA with Norway, Iceland, Korea, and Japan will totally undermine all of the cooperative efforts of the Canadian shipbuilding participants of the past two and a half decades to bring the Government of Canada to a point of implementing a comprehensive strategy with a viable long-range plan for the sector.

For over two and a half decades, all parties in the industry have been calling on the Government of Canada and demonstrating the need through numerous studies and submissions to develop a strategy for the development of a viable, modern industry available to meet future Canadian requirements. Finally, in June 2001, then Minister of Industry Brian Tobin gave his reply to a March 2001 report of the industry-labour shipbuilding National Partnership Project Committee, which had appealed to the minister to take practical and feasible steps to assist in the revitalization of the shipbuilding and marine fabrication industry across Canada. In his reply to the national partnership committee report, Minister Tobin acknowledged that Canada's shipbuilders systematically encountered competition from production subsidies, generous financing, market protection, state ownership, and, in Canada's largest potential market, the United States, the Jones Act, which excludes them from large parts of the commercial market.

Among the 36 recommendations by the national partnership committee, one addressed the hidden subsidy to vessel purchasers from shipyards in South Korea and China through the mechanism of very low wages and intolerable working conditions imposed on their workers. In some countries the workers themselves are subsidizing their industry by working for low wages and in conditions that would not be tolerated in Canada. By deliberately suppressing labour and social rights, some foreign shipbuilders are effectively filling their order books at the expense of their workers. In light of this reality, the national partnership committee believes that an international social clause governing labour standards in the shipbuilding industry should be developed and promoted by the Canadian government.

In his June 2001 announcement of a new policy framework for the Canadian shipbuilding and marine industry, Minister Tobin stated that the Canadian industry is recognized as an important contributor to the national and local economies, and that a viable competitive domestic ship maintenance and repair capacity is important to Canadian operational needs. However, since that announcement, each succeeding government has stepped further back from Minister Tobin's modest commitments to the industry.

Canada has coasts that face three oceans. It has the longest coastline in the world and has maritime responsibilities extending over an ocean area greater than its land mass. The St. Lawrence Seaway transportation route is longer than the Atlantic Ocean is wide, yet we have a maritime transportation manufacturing industry that has been floundering for over 30 years because of a failure of the government to recognize and act in the interest of a vital and strategic sector.

The governments of all great shipbuilding countries in the world, including the U.S., Norway, Japan, Korea, and, more recently, China, have long recognized the strategic importance of domestic shipbuilding and have built up their industries through all manner of procurement policies, subsidies, tax relief, loan guarantees, infrastructure development, and tariff protection. Canada is the only large maritime union that hasn't had a plan and a development strategy for the industry for the past 50 years.

To have to confront the European Free Trade Association under a standard FTA under these circumstances will result in disaster for our country, for our industry. We call upon the government to exempt the shipbuilding industry from this agreement until the following has been done: all manufacturing industry parties have been consulted on the trade agreement model best suited for entering into an FTA with EFTA; comprehensive economic and social impact assessments have been conducted under alternative FTA models, with participation by labour unions and civil society groups in Canada; and a comprehensive industrial strategy has been developed by the government for the Canadian transportation manufacturing industry that has, as its primary objective, the long-term stability and viability of the shipbuilding and marine fabrication industry on the east and west coasts. Finally, we call upon the federal government to immediately implement an enhanced structured financing facility and accelerated capital cost allowance for the industry and an effective “buy Canada” policy for all government procurements.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you.

Now if he's still with us, we'll go to Terry Pugh, the executive secretary of the National Farmers Union, by teleconference. Are you there, Terry?

9:20 a.m.

Executive Secretary, National Farmers Union

Terry Pugh

I am, thank you very much.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Please go ahead.

9:20 a.m.

Executive Secretary, National Farmers Union

Terry Pugh

Thank you very much for the invitation to appear. Sorry I wasn't able to get to Ottawa. I appreciate this.

We're concerned that this agreement will be of very small benefit to Canada, because the only estimate we've seen is that it will save an estimated $5 million in tariffs. That's a very small amount when you're dealing with the amount of agricultural trade Canada has. Most of the benefits supposedly are in agriculture and food, although we haven't seen any comprehensive economic analysis.

The bottom line for us is that the measure of the success or failure of any trade agreement from the farmers' perspective is whether it actually raises farmers' net incomes. A trade agreement that boosts exports but results in lower net farm income is not a good deal for farmers.

In general, in the free trade agreement with the U.S. we've seen a consistent increase in exports but an actual decline in farm income. For example, from 1988 to 2007 our agrifood exports increased substantially from $10.9 billion all the way up to $32.65 billion, but realized net farm income declined quite dramatically from $3.9 billion down to $1.5 billion.

Over that period as well we've seen farm debt climb from $22.5 billion all the way up to $54 billion. You might remember that in 1988 farm debt was considered a serious problem in Canada. Now we have well over double that debt, and with the collapse of the stock market and the increase in difficulties with the credit market, this debt will seriously come back to haunt farmers, particularly in the spring.

One of the benefits that has been documented in this trade agreement is that we will increase our exports of frozen french fries to at least one of those countries. The difficulty we see is that the benefits of exporting frozen french fries will not go directly to the farmers; they'll go to the companies that manufacture those frozen french fries. If you look at the latest figures from the Atlantic provinces in particular, you'll see that potato farmers in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island are in severe financial trouble. McCain and Irving meanwhile are doing fine, and their profits are not in any jeopardy at this point.

It is also predicted that Canada will see an increase in exports of durum wheat to Norway. Keep in mind that Canada already has half the durum wheat market in the world, thanks largely to the Canadian Wheat Board marketing efforts, and the grain quality standards we have in Canada are thanks to the Canadian Grain Commission. I'll point out that both of those institutions are currently jeopardized by some of the other policies that have come down the pike.

The reality is that free trade agreements in themselves don't create prosperity, and they actually undermine the abilities of countries such as Canada to implement policies that are designed to strengthen our own internal industries. The shipbuilders made a good point about the loss of the shipbuilding industry in Canada. That's important, particularly in certain regions, but when you look at the potential loss of a food-producing industry in Canada, the consequences can be devastating.

This agreement in general defers virtually everything to the World Trade Organization. Notwithstanding the government's stated support of supply management, this WTO agreement poses very serious threats to both supply management and the Canadian Wheat Board's single desk. With the ministerial coming up in July, that is going to create a real pressure-cooker situation, where governments will be under tremendous pressure to sign an agreement.

We see the stance of protecting some of these policies beforehand, but when it comes down to it, it's often presented as a trade-off: we had to make this concession in order to get a deal because to not get a deal would be a bad thing.

So in section 28 of the WTO, there are things like tariffs governing milk protein concentrates. These are under review. The whole of tariff quotas are under review. Of course, the Canadian Wheat Board, in the agriculture text, is under severe pressure not only for the government guarantees but also for the single desk at the Canadian Wheat Board. We know the Conservative government has been trying for quite a while now, and using various methods, to eliminate that single desk, so if they're able to accomplish that goal through the WTO, the temptation will be there to sign that deal and perhaps sacrifice the supply management system.

If that supply management system is changed under the WTO, Canadian dairy producers, of course, will stand to lose a tremendous amount of money. If it's signed, the potential income losses would be over $1 billion, according to the Dairy Farmers of Canada, and that includes a $750 million loss through tariff reduction, $300 million through tariff rate quota expansion, $25 million from capping tariffs, and $75 million from the end of export subsidies.

So there's a lot at stake, and the fact is that this agreement defers to the WTO, and the impact will eventually be measured when the WTO agreement actually is concluded, if it is concluded. We feel that agriculture is too important an industry to have all of the rules set at trade negotiations like this.

I'll stop there and go to any questions you've got.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Great. Thank you very much, Mr. Pugh.

That concludes opening statements. We'll now move to questions.

Again, I'll remind committee members and the witnesses that the questions in the first round are to be seven minutes for the question and answer.

We'll begin with Mr. Brison. Welcome back.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being with us today and for your insight.

You mentioned the structured finance facility and the need to reinvest in it. It's about 60% expended now, the $50 million. It's about 60% or...?

9:30 a.m.

Chairman, Shipbuilding Association of Canada

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

At least 60%. And it's only a couple of years into the program. So would you suggest an additional $50 million go into the structured finance facility? Would that be about adequate?

9:30 a.m.

Chairman, Shipbuilding Association of Canada

Andrew McArthur

That's a difficult question to answer. It depends how many contracts the shipyards collectively want to sign, but it's a big help.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I think the specifics of having the structured finance facility and the accelerated capital cost allowance available to purchasers at the same time.... If you're a foreign purchaser buying Canadian vessels, you can qualify for the accelerated capital cost allowance in your own country, in your tax system, and the structured finance facility from the Government of Canada, but if you're a domestic buyer in Canada, you have to choose between the two. Is that accurate?

9:30 a.m.

Chairman, Shipbuilding Association of Canada

Andrew McArthur

Yes, that's totally correct. And we feel that's totally unfair to Canadian owners.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

And that can make a significant difference in terms of your competitiveness?

9:30 a.m.

Chairman, Shipbuilding Association of Canada

Andrew McArthur

Yes. Obviously, if a Canadian owner was getting access to the structured financing and the accelerated capital cost allowance, it would make a huge difference, and I think you would see an upsurge in Canadian owners wanting to build here.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

What it does is equalize the playing field in terms of what foreign buyers of Canadian vessels already enjoy.

9:30 a.m.

Chairman, Shipbuilding Association of Canada

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

In terms of procurement, a commitment moving forward and getting the funds flowing and the projects completed for joint support supply vessels and six new coast guard vessels, that government procurement is essential to you, isn't it?

9:30 a.m.

Chairman, Shipbuilding Association of Canada

Andrew McArthur

I think without that government procurement we won't have an industry here in a few years. I think it would completely disappear.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

With a reinvestment in the structured finance facility, and with the ability for Canadian buyers to participate in both the structured finance facility and the accelerated capital cost allowance, and a better government procurement program, a rational government procurement program, for Canadian vessels where we buy Canadian vessels and we accelerate those purchases because there's a strong need to invest--those three together can make a significant difference for your industry.

9:30 a.m.

Chairman, Shipbuilding Association of Canada

Andrew McArthur

Absolutely. That is truly what the shipbuilding association has been pushing. Just as you say, combine SFF and ACCA, maintain the build in Canada program, and get it going. The navy needs these ships; the Canadian Coast Guard needs these ships.

The Arctic is very important to Canada. If you look at what's happening in the Arctic today, there are a lot of intrusions by a lot of countries, and we have virtually no capability. We have the Louis St. Laurent, an icebreaker that was built in the late sixties. That's our biggest icebreaker.