International Trade Committee on May 4th, 2010

[Mark Rowlinson]

Only if there's some evidence that those labour rights provisions are actually going to provide substantive protections to workers. Again, in my view, there isn't such evidence. I'd like to talk to you at greater length about extractive industries in Colombia, but I'm not sure now is the time. The reality is there are lots and lots of cases where foreign mining companies active in Colombia have given rise to enormously high levels of violence against their workers when they try to join trade unions.

I will give you a very brief example. Drummond mining is an American company. In the middle of collective bargaining, the local union president and vice-president were taken off the bus that took the workers from the locker up to the mine and their heads were shot. They were assassinated in front of the entire workforce in Colombia.

The reality is that when a company becomes active in Colombia, they are told that trade unionists are affiliated with the guerrillas, whether they are or they aren't. So they are told they need to retain the services of the paramilitary to combat that.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

But union membership has increased by 76% in Colombia.

[Mark Rowlinson]

That's not my information. Again, that's not the information of the Colombian labour school, with all due respect.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Okay. We've heard these numbers on both sides many times before.

Mr. Allison.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I just have a couple of quick questions, and then I'm going to send it down to my colleague, Mr. Carrie.

Mr. Potts, it was talked about the U.S. steel being signed. I just want to reiterate that Colombia has deals with dozens of countries right now, and even though it hasn't been ratified by the U.S., you are correct, the deal has been done and it could be ratified at any time. I think it's a wrong argument to say let's wait until it gets ratified, because that could happen at any time. We realize there are challenges in the U.S. Congress, but we know that is moving forward.

I just want to state as well that Colombia has deals with dozens of countries, and I'm not sure they're waiting just for ours, because they've been out trying to free trade, trying to create other economic abilities for their country, so they don't have to rely so much on the drugs they deal with.

Mr. Westcott, just to your point, my question is more or less in terms of where the U.S. is in terms of what their tariffs are right now going into Colombia. You guys talked about the 20%. Are they competing...? Obviously they are competing there right now. Do they have the same kinds of tariffs?

[Jan Westcott]

We both face the same structural impediments; the market is designed to favour local producers. We all produce to essentially a world standard, and we don't adjust our products depending on where we're going. They're largely in the same position. We do compete directly with the United States, particularly the U.S. bourbon business. Canadian whisky competes aggressively against U.S. bourbon. They're pretty much in the same place. They're looking for the same kind of amelioration of the rules to make it more conducive to....

We can't invest money in developing a business and a market for our goods if that investment isn't going to be secure in the sense that somebody else can come along and sell something and claim it to be Canadian whisky or American bourbon. So in that sense, we're in the same boat.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Okay. And once again, any advantage to get in there before the U.S. is helpful for building the brands and all those other kinds of things.

[Jan Westcott]

Absolutely.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Rates are one thing, but obviously building the brand takes time, so the sooner you can get there the more competitive you are.

Okay, thanks.

Mr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm a visitor to this committee, but one of the things that was a little discouraging for me was the union representatives' position. I come from Oshawa, and in Oshawa we build quality cars. We export, and one of the markets is Colombia. Canadian auto workers export to Colombia. We are trying to promote export markets for our value-added products.

Maybe I can ask Mr. Westcott and also Mr. Potts, with the value-added in the products you produce, we keep the jobs here in Canada. And wherever we've been around the world, if we have that level playing field, how do Canadians do?

[Jan Westcott]

We do very well. Our motto in our business is that we believe in competition. Competition brings out the best in products, the best in services.

We are primary manufacturers. We take raw materials, exclusively grain in Canada--rye, corn, and some wheat--and we produce finished products that we ship around the world, to close to 200 countries. If the playing field can be levelled, we can succeed.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

And that's a positive to our economy. I, and I know our government, have confidence in Canadian workers. When they have the opportunity to compete internationally, it does give us those spin-offs.

Can you see any downside in terms of jobs with an agreement like this?

[Jan Westcott]

No. The more whisky, the more vodka we can sell, the more grain we're going to buy. It helps farmers, people on the production side, and all of the ancillary industries that supply goods to us, whether they are people who make bottles, cartons, labels--you name it. All of those people succeed when we can grow our export business. Canada is an export country: seven out of ten bottles that we produce leave this country.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Potts, what do you see? When we have that level playing field with the people you represent, how do you think we will do?

[Carl Potts]

The Canadian pulse and special crop industry is quite different from other field crops that we export to, by the level of processing, cleaning, splitting, and value-added that goes on within the industry. There are dozens of small and medium-sized companies in the west, but also bean dealers in Ontario, who employ medium amounts of people in those types of processing and value-added applications.

As we can expand our export markets and retain our existing export markets, which is particularly important for Colombia, that's going to be very beneficial, not only to our own specific industry but to Canada as a whole, from an employment perspective and others. With a level playing field, we compete very well. That's our key interest in this Canada-Colombia deal, ensuring that we retain a competitive and level playing field.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

And it's positive for Canadian jobs.

[Carl Potts]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

I'm sorry that we've run out of time.

La dernière question, Madame Guay.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me try to put things together. In some countries like Colombia, or other countries with whom agreements have been signed, we know very well that there are governments that are undemocratic, that are dictatorial and, I dare say, even corrupt. Everyone knows, everyone sees that children are forced to work and that people are paid unacceptable wages. This is exploitation pure and simple, and everyone knows it. We in Quebec are in favour of free trade. But when it comes to decisions as important as reaching an agreement with countries as dangerous as that, the agreements really must be negotiated in an appropriate way in order to set an example and in order for the situation not to continue, or even get worse.

Mr. Lemelin, could you tell me about what you have seen there? We are told that there are no more murders or disappearances, but that is not true because they come to light every day. I would like to know what you think. Mr. Rowlinson, could you tell us how we could put this agreement right?

Let me add one last thing: there is going to be a fight in the House against passing this, for as long as it takes for the government to understand that it really is making a serious mistake.

[Denis Lemelin]

Briefly, in Colombia, they have official newspapers and they have newspapers in the street. You find out what is going on in the latter. We went to a reserve called La María. It was completely surrounded by the military at the time and a number of the Aboriginal leaders—more than a hundred—were subsequently murdered.

I just want to talk about one aspect that seems extremely important to me. We always talk about the extraction sector in Colombia, but most displaced people are in agriculture. People are displaced because of the sugar cane and the African palm that is used to produce biofuels or for export, likely to make whisky. That takes sugar, amongst other things, and the workers are exploited. I feel that this is an extremely important factor that has to be considered.

[Mark Rowlinson]

I generally agree with my friend from CUPW.

I wanted to address one other issue, which is that the trade union movement in Colombia is firmly opposed to this agreement. I know that this committee has heard mixed evidence on this issue. I was in Colombia again last year, and I met with the leaders of the three primary labour centrals. All three labour centrals--both the public sector and private sector unions with which the union for which I work has close relationships--are opposed to the Canada-Colombia free trade agreement, .

I'll just give you an illustration. My most striking recollection of being with these labour centrals was that the first labour central office we went to was behind 18 inches of steel plate. They feel that this is what's necessary to be secure. They have security provisions the likes of which I have never seen in an office. It cannot be the case that a country that requires its trade unionists to work behind 18 inches of steel plate is truly a free place for workers to join trade unions.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You are right. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Okay. That is it for today. I'll see you on Thursday.

The meeting is adjourned.