Evidence of meeting #64 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Predeep Sood  Chief Executive Officer, Starling Corporation
Suresh Madan  Champion, Canada Chapters, Member, Global Board of Trustees, The Indus Entrepreneurs
Rick McRonald  Executive Director, Canadian Livestock Genetics Association

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

I want to thank our three witnesses for coming forward today. We're going to take all three in a row, then we will start our questions and answers. We want to welcome you to our discussion of a comprehensive economic partnership agreement between Canada and India.

We have with us from the Starling Corporation, Predeep Sood. We want to thank you for being here.

From The Indus Entrepreneurs, we have Mr. Madan.

From the Canadian Livestock Genetics Association, we have Mr. McRonald.

We want to hear from everyone. We'll start with Mr. Sood. The floor is yours, sir.

3:30 p.m.

Predeep Sood Chief Executive Officer, Starling Corporation

Distinguished members of the committee, thank you for giving me this opportunity to share my views on the comprehensive economic partnership agreement, CEPA, that is currently under negotiation with India.

I've been doing business with India in the IT-enabled services space since 2002. Three years back we set up Starling Corporation with a focus on working with small and medium-sized enterprises interested in engaging in the Canada-India corridor.

I've had the privilege of being president of the Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce, board member of the Toronto Region Board of Trade, chair of the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, and now I sit on the board of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce. Today, however, I'm here as the CEO of Starling Corporation.

Seeing the growth rate, the demographics, and the booming middle class in India, I firmly believe that having India as part of our global strategy is very important. However, it is time to move from “why India?” to “how India?” We have to ensure that we get the India file right.

While signing a CEPA with India is a critical step in the right direction, I believe there are other important aspects to be kept in mind to help SMEs meanwhile to grow and continue building a strong economic relationship with India. For example, companies that operate in the largely deregulated areas are currently making good progress without CEPA and FIPA. Where these agreements will be important is in enabling the very same SMEs to get into the heavily regulated part of the market.

In my opinion it is important to ensure that we have a high-quality agreement in a reasonable time that is strategic not just for today's relationship but also one that will be able to access to tomorrow's opportunities as well.

Canada has a large geographic area with diversified interests, meaning that we cannot have a one-size-fits-all strategy in the partnership agreement. This, I believe, also holds good for India. In particular, it would be productive to address the individual province-state concerns to maximize the engagement under the agreement. Having regional strategies for India should be an integral part of this agreement. We cannot afford to limit the potential of a good deal just to meet an artificial deadline. The outcome has to be fair to both parties.

In the meantime we need to focus on helping our SMEs prepare for what will be required when CEPA happens. We need to address at the practical level what should be done to ensure that business activities continue to grow in this corridor.

I also believe that if you were to address this relationship on a purely economic basis, we might lose. We must find out what Canada needs to bring to the table in respect of what India wants, and also prepare what we need to ask of India to help us build a sustainable partnership and put us ahead of the other countries. We can then try to develop our relationship on the back of that unique proposition.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much for that. I'm sure it will stir a number of questions.

Before that we have Mr. Madan from The Indus Entrepreneurs.

The floor is yours, sir.

3:35 p.m.

Suresh Madan Champion, Canada Chapters, Member, Global Board of Trustees, The Indus Entrepreneurs

Thank you. It's a great honour and privilege to appear before the House of Commons Standing Committee on International Trade. The standing committee and Canada's negotiating team have put tremendous efforts into furthering our national interests, and we are very proud of you.

I'll give you just a little background before I begin. I was born and educated in India, where I did my engineering degree and MBA. I worked for a few years with large companies in India before I emigrated to Canada. In Canada, I run an investment fund. I'm a portfolio manager of three different portfolios that invest money for Canadian families in both Canadian and foreign companies.

Today I am appearing before the committee on behalf The Indus Entrepreneurs, the organization I have been volunteering with for the last eight years. The Indus Entrepreneurs was set up in Silicon Valley in 1992 by a group of people who shared roots from the Indus region. Over the years we have grown tremendously and now have 13,000 members globally, with 65 chapters in 17 different countries.

We started our activities in Canada in 2000. In the last 13 years we have seen huge growth in Canada, and have about 1,000 members and chapters in Toronto, Ottawa, and Vancouver. We also have 16 different chapters in India in all the major cities there.

Our focus is to foster and nurture entrepreneurs. We want to nurture and encourage people to start on their own and help them commercialize their ideas. In this regard, we offer three different main activities.

One of them is mentoring. We offer one-to-one mentoring. Of our 13,000 members, we have 2,500 successful entrepreneurs who have agreed to share their time, their networks, and their connections to help other entrepreneurs establish business.

The second major activity we do is the TiEQuest business venture competition. In fact, we are in the midst of our ninth annual competition now, and we have received entries from 214 companies that are coming up with innovative products and services. They're competing against each other for prize money of $150,000, as well as an opportunity to get financing from Canadian venture capital funds. We are seeing projects in cloud computing, big data, social media, clean tech, diagnostic devices, and a number of other high-tech and innovative product ideas.

We are very proud of the 25 different success stories in Canada that we've been able to create through this competition over the years. These companies are well established and have hired a number of people. Some of them have also been sold to multinationals.

In the last two years, we believe that we've found our calling by starting a new initiative called the TiE Institute, where we educate youth and new Canadians so they can learn the ropes on how to become an entrepreneur. I think the opportunity was liked. We have already been able to help 300 entrepreneurs start out, helping them generate and commercialize new ideas. We were able to integrate our TiE Institute offering with our competition, as well as with our mentoring program.

In addition, outside of Canada we have been doing a number of other activities, like holding major conferences of entrepreneurs, including our TiE engine networks, as well as offering a program every month at a breakfast seminar on doing business in India. We can do this because of our huge connectivity with the entrepreneurial community globally, and specifically in India.

TiE has a singular focus on wealth creation through entrepreneurship. It inspires and educates budding entrepreneurs and provides role models and one-to-one mentorship. TiE was involved in various conservation processes during the liberalization in India in the early nineties, and we are also actively involved with social entrepreneurs because we bring in a substantial pool of intellectual capital anyway.

Canada and India have so much in common. We are parliamentary democracies, pluralistic societies, and knowledge-based economies, with high contributions to GDP by the service sector, a combination that you don't see in many other countries. CEPA will benefit both countries and, therefore, we are very proud that the committee and our negotiating team have been working hard for the last three and a half years to make this a meaningful agreement.

Based on my experience of working with entrepreneurs, I'd like to focus on four areas where I think we need some additional push.

The first of those is bilateral investment. I know there have been negotiations on this, but it has not yet been ratified by the government. We need to go way beyond foreign direct investment into other areas of investment.

There are six areas that concern us regarding investment.

There is a limit on foreign borrowing in India, which limits investors from Canada actually investing in loan products there. There is a deferential tax treatment in force for portfolio investments. In the Indian market, the bulk of the foreign investment goes through either Mauritius, Dubai, or Cyprus. For Canadian investors and Canadian portfolio managers investing in India, it is impossible for tax reasons. Also, Indian companies are very much interested in tapping into foreign capital markets. Canadian capital markets provide a huge opportunity, especially in resources, mining, and a number of sectors. Indian companies, because of regulations, are not able to tap into these capital markets here. Similarly, Indian investors are able to invest in some other countries, but they're not able to invest in mutual funds as well as portfolio investments in Canadian organizations or Canadian funds. As an individual, I am allowed to buy real estate in India, but real estate funds from Canada are not allowed to buy there. These factors create various types of hindrances in the market. Within the CEPA and the service sector specifically, I think we need to address the question of investment opportunities for both Canadians and Indians.

Secondly, we need a much greater level of cooperation in the innovation economy. It is widely recognized that entrepreneurship is the engine of economic growth. The motivation of people to become entrepreneurs today is probably the highest it's ever been, given the economic uncertainty, lack of corporate security, layoffs, as well as downsizing in large organizations. Employment generation is a huge priority, both for Canada and India. In particular, youth have the fire in their bellies to come up with innovative products and ideas. To take advantage of this, it is the responsibility of both of our governments to create opportunities for youth. We always talk about the younger population in India and a potential demographic dividend, but this demographic dividend could become a nightmare if opportunities for youth are not created. The energy of youth can be harnessed through entrepreneurship and innovation.

Thirdly, I'd like to spend a little bit of time on the movement of people. It is well-known that half of the technology companies in Silicon Valley were set up by immigrants. We find that the Canadian immigration system over the last two years has been able to attract very highly qualified people who have the ability and interest to start on their own. On the other hand, the baby boomers are retiring. They're now 65. Many banks have done surveys and reported that many small business owners and baby boomers are planning to retire or are retiring and many of their businesses are up for sale. New Canadians can step into their shoes as well as acquire these businesses and grow them. We need to grow. A start-up visa is a very positive initiative. I think we need to strengthen international cooperation as well as CEPA to allow entrepreneurs and people who want to become entrepreneurs to immigrate.

Fourthly, I believe that the state of the negotiations and the time it has taken to go through seven different rounds so far has been very similar to the environment that private entrepreneurs have been facing in India. We know that India does not rank very high in the ease of doing business there. We also know that Indians are very cost conscious and very conscious about the decision-making process.

I think what we have achieved, through our negotiations, has been quite substantial. It is probably time to close them as soon as we can and to think of the rest as an incremental process. We should try to sign CEPA as quickly as we can with whatever advantages we have obtained and then negotiate the additional things on an incremental basis at stage two or stage three of finalization. Timeliness is critical and it is even more critical for entrepreneurs who do not have a huge runway. So I urge the standing committee to work towards getting the CEPA signed as quickly as we can.

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much. I'm sure we'll be asking you some questions on that.

We also have from Guelph, Ontario, through video conference, Mr. McRonald, executive director of the Canadian Livestock Genetics Association.

The floor is yours, sir.

3:45 p.m.

Rick McRonald Executive Director, Canadian Livestock Genetics Association

Thank you very much for this opportunity. This is the first week in about four that I haven't been in Ottawa, so the opportunity to do this by video conference is much appreciated.

India is a market with great potential for the Canadian livestock genetics sector, and we appreciate the support and assistance offered by the Government of Canada in our daily cooperation with CFIA , Agriculture Canada, and Foreign Affairs and International Trade, and the potential benefits offered by a CEPA.

I'll do a little introduction of CLGA first.

CLGA is a trade association of those involved in the livestock genetics industry, with about 70 members who do business in about 100 countries. Our membership includes artificial insemination companies, embryo export companies, live animal export companies, and those who provide services to the industry and help us with the development of capacity in other countries by developing genetic evaluation systems, animal management systems, and so on.

Our mandate has us dealing with animal health and market access and market development issues, and our membership comes from the dairy industry, the sheep and goat industry, and the poultry industry. But for the purposes of this hearing, I will confine my comments to the dairy industry.

I'll give a bit of history of the relationship between India and Canada and the dairy genetics industry.

There was limited contact back as far as the 1970s, and in fact, some Canadian Holstein heifers did go to India during that time. The Canadian Hunger Foundation partnered with Bharatiya Agro Industries Foundation, otherwise known as BAIF, and for several years in a row there were deliveries of bovine semen to India. But when the funding for that project ran out, the business stopped. Between then and the early 2000s, there was very limited contact and market access lapsed, so we then had no access for semen or embryos or live animals to India.

In the early 2000s commercial interest began to grow. After some protracted negotiations we were able to get limited access for semen and embryos in India 2005. This was followed by a period during which it was virtually impossible to get import permits. So we got the access but couldn't get permits. That has pretty much been resolved. It's interesting to note that during that period, the three large artificial insemination companies that are members of CLGA all had Indian expatriates as their marketing managers in that region of the world. As we were preparing our long-term international strategies and applications for funding under the agri-marketing program, they all said, “Don't make India a very high priority.” But that has changed. As commercial interest in India has grown, the pressure to get full access to the country and to engage in the capacity-building that is required in the dairy industry has been great.

The issues that we've encountered in India with respect to technical market access include their claim of having very few resources to devote to negotiations with the countries that want to work in India, and so they have tried to develop a protocol that all countries will have to comply with. This continues to be a reason or excuse for the delays that we continue to encounter in achieving our market access goals there. Clearly, having one animal-health protocol or technical protocol in terms of zootechnics for all countries simply doesn't work. It creates huge delays in achieving our goals and in their achieving their own development goals.

As I mentioned, the outstanding technical issues are related to animal health and testing for genetic abnormalities, which is a very much outdated approach to things. It fails to recognize the authorities in various countries that are responsible for those issues.

There's also an issue with a lack of coordination between the people who negotiate market access in the capital and those on the frontier—at airports, for example— who have to receive shipments. We end up with shipments of goods being held at the airport or at the port of entry, and that again leads to costly delays.

I'll say a word about the Indian dairy industry. India produces more milk than any other nation on earth—cattle and buffalo milk—and they are proudly self-sufficient. But consumption is increasing at a faster rate than production can be increased in the traditional and old-fashioned system that currently exists in India. Realizing this, the Indian government has secured a World Bank loan to begin the process of modernizing their dairy industry.

In response to a request made by the Indian agriculture minister to both the Premier of Saskatchewan and Minister Ritz, in 2010 CLGA contracted the Saskatchewan Research Council, which, with funding support from the agri-marketing program, conducted an analysis of the Indian dairy industry and made recommendations on the issues that needed to be addressed first. The report was accepted, and the Indian minister designated lead responsibility for its implementation to the National Dairy Development Board, or the NDDB.

The Canadian dairy genetics sector remains committed to the capacity-building task in India, but this will in part be funded by the opportunity to conduct business. That is why science-based technical market access and transparent and expedient import processes are essential as part of the package.

An Indian technical mission to Canada was undertaken in the fall of 2011. In 2012 the chairperson of the National Dairy Development Board also visited Canada. So far, however, none of the recommendations in the SRC report have been acted upon. It is unclear what the next steps will be.

It is our impression that the forces of change and the forces of tradition have collided, and the realities of modernizing the Indian dairy industry are being sorted out. We are currently working with our partners and with Agriculture Canada on a Canadian mission to India to try to re-establish priorities and decide what the next steps will be.

In the meantime, competitor nations are very actively courting the Indian government and the Indian industry, with representatives of those countries and those industries posted in India and assigned to study tours for decision-makers to other countries. We hope that the CEPA will help Canada stay ahead of the pack.

Thank you very much.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

I'm sure we're going to get into how large the dairy genetics industry actually is in India and its potential there, but I'm not going to steal any questions. I will leave that to Mr. Don Davies, who will start our questioning.

The floor is yours, sir.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Sood, Mr. Madan, and Mr. McRonald for being here and lending us your expertise.

I want to start with the overall context. Although India was Canada's fifteenth-largest trade partner in 2012, it's not a major trading partner considering its population size and relatively rapid rate of economic growth, we're told.

To put some numbers around that, in 2012, if we just deal with merchandise trade and isolate that one factor, Canada-India merchandise trade totalled $5.2 billion, whereas Australia, a country similar to Canada in terms of its economy, geographic size, and population, had merchandise exports to India valued at $14.9 billion.

While we can account for that in terms of India and Australia's geographical proximity, Switzerland, a country whose GDP is approximately a third of Canada's and who is as geographically remote as us, had merchandise exports to India valued at $32.4 billion.

With those numbers, I'm wondering if any of you could help us understand what the main obstacles seem to be preventing Canada and India from raising those numbers, which I think all of us are interested in doing.

Mr. Sood.

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Starling Corporation

Predeep Sood

That is a great question, because every time we talk about India, Australia always seems to be the country that comes up in the discussion because of its population, the size, and all the rest.

I think a couple of things are very important when we raise a question like this. Obviously everyone will tell you about their proximity, which is true. Australia is very close to India and it is able to get things going in the Pacific, especially with Japan and all those countries over there, far better than Canada can because of our location.

More importantly, to do justice to the question I think we need to know what is in that $14 billion. That's critical. As you're aware, in 2010 the Prime Minister said that we would do $15 billion in trade by 2015 and yet we are only at $5.2 billion, as you correctly said. There is no road map, there is no blueprint, so it becomes very difficult for anyone to know what led to the $15 billion number being mentioned in the first place. With a road map, you would at least know where you went wrong and learn some of what we need to do next to make it happen.

From the same point of view, Australia's biggest advantage is that it started early in terms of real trade and because of their proximity, they are able to get much more trade with India.

Again, of the $14 billion I'd like to know how much is going which way, because that's also critical. I think Australia must be sending more to India than India is sending to it, because India is buying a lot of large stuff from Australia.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

If I may interrupt, Mr. Sood, my information is that the $14.9 billion is exports from Australia to India alone.

If I could refer to Switzerland, though, it's exporting $32.4 billion, roughly six times what Canada is sending. It's a smaller economy and is just as far away from India as Canada is, in many respects.

So I'm more interested in getting something productive. What barriers do you think exist, or where can we improve those numbers? Do you have any positive suggestions in that regard?

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Starling Corporation

Predeep Sood

For example, we tried to examine a product like sulphur, which Canada is very strong in and has a great product. But the sulphur from the Middle East to India is so much cheaper than ours that we tend not to get the contract.

I feel very strongly that the greatest disadvantage we have is more geographic than anything else.

The positive spin to this would be that if we can build a strong relationship, we might be able to get something better, but as you know, economics says that demand and supply are cost-based, which, unfortunately, doesn't work in our favour.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Madan, or Mr. McRonald, do you have anything you'd like to add?

3:55 p.m.

Champion, Canada Chapters, Member, Global Board of Trustees, The Indus Entrepreneurs

Suresh Madan

The services sector comprises 70 per cent of Canada's GDP and about 55 per cent of India's GDP. There would be a growth in merchandise exports but I believe a much larger opportunity for both countries is in the services sector, as it comprises a significant portion of our and India's GDPs.

There are so many opportunities in the service sector that have not been tried. Merchandise exports are only $5 billion, and those in the service sector are hardly anything. We do not have any portfolio investment directly in India, and none of the Indian companies have invested in Canadian capital markets. Indian entrepreneurs are not able to tap the entrepreneurial ecosystem we have built in Canada. Thus Indian companies as well as Canadian companies are not able to tap each other's venture capital industry.

I believe there are much larger opportunities to enhance trade in financial and legal services, and in various types of professional services, which would generate a significant increase in export revenue for both India and Canada.

4 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Our figures are that total services trade between Canada and India was $1.2 billion in 2010, so I agree with you that there seems to be a great deal of room for growth.

Mr. McRonald, I don't want to keep you out of this. Do you have something you'd like to add about the barriers that you think we could be addressing, which might get our trade numbers up?

4 p.m.

Champion, Canada Chapters, Member, Global Board of Trustees, The Indus Entrepreneurs

Suresh Madan

Because of my own experience in the service sector, I can definitely point to a number of barriers in the service sector that are hindrances to our trade.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Excuse me for a second, but I think the question was for Mr. McRonald. He has a few short minutes left, so go ahead.

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Livestock Genetics Association

Rick McRonald

In terms of increasing Canada's trade with India, dairy genetics is not going to add billions but it will add millions and it's new. So it's trade that hasn't happened, and I suggest that Australia and Switzerland aren't participating in that either because it's a new market for everyone.

But as I noted, we need to have science-based, technical market access to India, and we need to have smooth import processes for us to be able to get those goods in there. Getting the goods in there will provide us with some of the funding we need to help India build the infrastructure it needs to increase and be more efficient at milk production.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Mr. Keddy, you have seven minutes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to our witnesses.

Since I get to be the first questioner, and although I know that our chairman is a dairy farmer and my colleague Mr. Shipley is a former dairy farmer, I'm going to ask the dairy question, before they beat me to it.

4 p.m.

An. hon. member

And milk it for all it's worth.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Yes, and we'll milk it for all it's worth. Exactly.

My question is simple, and I think you partially answered it in your summary, Mr. McRonald. You stated earlier that the Indian dairy industry and market is the largest dairy consumer in the world. I can understand that genetics would play an important role in that but I think we're missing an opportunity here in infrastructure building and actually facilitating the movement of raw milk from the farm to the dairy, as well as on the genetic end of it.

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Livestock Genetics Association

Rick McRonald

Oh, sure, I totally agree with you. That's part of the work that the Saskatchewan Research Council did in looking at the broad issue of the dairy industry in India. So there are opportunities there for more than genetics, and from our point of view we look at providing the genetics and making sure that the dairy producer has all the skills needed for those genetics to perform to their maximum.

But yes, the dairy industry is more than that. It's about getting a quality product on the farm to the processor and eventually to the consumer, and that's certainly what India is looking at. I think there are lots of opportunities for Canadians to build in India outside the genetics industry but still in the dairy and dairy processing industry.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Both Mr. Sood and Mr. Madan have mentioned capacity-building and access to the Indian market. The deregulated market, I think you mentioned, Mr. Sood, has good access. Lots of foreign investment and lots of SMEs from Canada are working there.

The regulated market is another issue entirely. How much of the Indian economy is regulated? I don't have that number.

I'd like an answer from both of you, but just before you answer I would say that I think it's dangerous to make assumptions. I know that my colleague from the NDP talked about the distance between Switzerland and Canada, but Switzerland is half again as close to India as Canada is. However distance shouldn't prevent us from trading, and we can overcome that distance with deregulation.

I'd like you to expound on that a little.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

We'll go with Mr. Madan and then Mr. Sood.

4:05 p.m.

Champion, Canada Chapters, Member, Global Board of Trustees, The Indus Entrepreneurs

Suresh Madan

Thank you.

The financial services, the legal services, and professional services segments of the market are essentially regulated. There are lots of hindrances to Canadian companies entering those markets in a bigger way. Therefore CEPA and FIPA and other agreements would definitely help.

Within the services sector, India, as well as Canada, both have similar strength in ICT, information and communications technology. India, in terms of its services sector, has made huge progress and is able to create and provide software for companies globally. Similarly, Canada has a good track record in growing and nurturing a number of small companies that have produced very high quality software that is used in the global market.

These segments are not necessarily regulated, but both of these segments require their own unique support. Both countries realize that they have to build an entrepreneurial ecosystem and grow and nurture entrepreneurial ecosystems where companies with ideas in that innovative segment of the economy can thrive. Even though they are not regulated, there needs to be a much higher degree of cooperation between India and Canada in this sector.