Evidence of meeting #68 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was peru.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Excellency Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte  Ambassador, Embassy of Colombia
Excellency José Antonio Bellina Acevedo  Ambassador, Embassy of Peru
Roberto Rodriguez  Deputy Head of Mission, Embassy of Peru

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I call the meeting to order.

I would ask members to take their seats so that we can continue our exciting study on the benefits of Canada joining the Pacific Alliance as a full member. We are there with observer status. We started this study at our last meeting.

We have with us today Ambassador Lloreda Ricaurte. Thank you for being here. You're the ambassador for Colombia, and we certainly welcome the bilateral trade agreement we have between our two countries, and we look forward to what you have to share with the committee with regard to the potential of the Pacific Alliance.

With that, we will hear a short presentation from you and then we'll get into the questions and answers. Go ahead.

3:35 p.m.

His Excellency Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte Ambassador, Embassy of Colombia

Mr. Chair, and honourable members, it's a pleasure to be here, and I thank you very much for the invitation.

I will try to be brief. I know you have some questions. I know you are already very familiar with the Pacific Alliance and have heard from one of our ambassadors already.

I have a written statement and I've provided copies, but I'd like to read it briefly.

Colombia continues to sustain a very positive economic performance. We have been growing at an average rate of 4.5% over the last 10 years. This has meant very welcome changes for our country.

During the last decade, the size of our economy has doubled, and this has meant that our middle class has grown from 16% to almost 30% and that we have finally begun to reduce poverty. In 2012, Colombia attracted a record amount of foreign investment, over $16.5 billion, and this is a result of our stable economic policies, increased security, and our legal stability.

After a very difficult time, Colombia is now widely seen as an emerging economy and a regional leader. How did we get there?

The transformation is due to several very basic reasons.

The first one, of course, was by preserving sound economic policies. That means maintaining an independent central bank, which is focused on controlling inflation, and prudent public spending policies, including responsible management of our debt. As you know, Colombia is the only country in Latin America that has never defaulted on its debt. Also, there has been transparent economic information available, with the government emphasizing the provision of open information as to the government's numbers, statistics, and management of the budget. This allows capital markets and investors to judge economic performance with accurate information.

The other reasons that explain the transformation of Colombia are our focus on security and the improvement of programs for social inclusion.

On security, after experiencing an unprecedented wave of violence throughout the late nineties to 2004, the government, through considerable sacrifice from Colombians and the generous support of the United States and other countries, was able to push insurgents to the more remote parts of the country and to cut their numbers by more than half.

The government reclaimed control of the territory and has also been implementing crucial social programs of supervised assistance to the poorest members of society. Programs, carefully audited, including incentives like conditional transfers to encourage school attendance and health care prevention, have been very successful. Just in the last year, 1.2 million people were lifted from the extreme poverty category because of these programs.

As the Colombian economy continues to grow, we find that the sectors showing the most promise are mining, financial services, real estate, business, and commerce. As the rating agencies improve our standing, inflation continues to be kept at 2%, unemployment continues to diminish—if somewhat more slowly than we would prefer—and many of our exports and imports grow substantially.

The relationship between Colombia and Canada has been a very positive one since the formal establishment of our relations in 1953. However, with the entry into force of the free trade treaty of August 15, 2011, it has entered into a new strategic phase. In the first 18 months of the agreement, Canada increased its presence in the Colombian market. Its exports just in the last year increased over 19%, bringing the total for the first time to over $1 billion. Canada's investment has also increased significantly, notably in financial services, mining, and energy. According to the Central Bank of Columbia, Canada recorded cumulative foreign direct investment in Colombia of $1.5 billion in the last 10 years. The main Colombian products that we export to Canada, and which show a healthy increase, are fresh flowers, sugar, textiles, and apparel, whereas the main Canadian exports, which are growing, are grains, industrial machinery, and vehicles.

Colombia firmly believes in the benefits of free trade as a tool to promote jobs and to foster economic growth. We believe in free enterprise, we protect investment, and we aim to provide security to all nationals and foreigners in our territory within a framework of strong respect for human rights.

As in every good, strong relationship, from time to time certain issues arise requiring special attention. While we advance on many fronts, the issue that we have identified as requiring significantly more time and attention is the facilitation of the entry of Colombian visitors to Canada. An improvement in this matter would lead to an increase in our bilateral trade, investment, and tourism. We are convinced that if we work together on this issue, as we have done with many other issues and close allies, we will be able to achieve significant progress without compromising the security and policies of either country.

The Pacific Alliance was created just two years ago, in April 2011, in Lima, as a mechanism for economic and trade integration. It seeks to act as a trade investment bloc and to ensure full and free movement of goods, services, capital, and its people. It is here where it goes beyond the traditional free trade agreement that generally limits itself to services and goods.

As you know, the alliance is composed of Colombia, Mexico, Chile, and Peru, and emerges from the affinity between these four Latin American countries on issues, such as the importance of the rule of law, the market economy, openness to foreign investment, and a common goal of increasing trade and also deepening our political and economic relations with the Asia-Pacific region.

All four countries have free trade agreements among themselves already, as well as with third countries, such as Canada, the U.S., and Costa Rica. The four member countries of the alliance jointly comprise a population of about 260 million people, with an income per capita of about $13,000 U.S. Colombia, Mexico, Chile, and Peru together account for half of our region's foreign trade—$534 billion in exports and $520 billion in imports—and are recipients of an average of $48 billion in foreign direct investment. Members of the alliance are expected to grow between 3.5% and 5% this year.

The alliance may integrate other regional economies in the future. It is a unique opportunity to capitalize on the stable growth of these economies. It has the following objectives: to build an area of deep integration and move progressively towards the free movement of goods, services, capital and people; to promote further growth, development, and competitiveness of the alliance's economies; and to become a political, trade, and economic integration platform projected to the world, with a special emphasis on the Asia-Pacific region.

The alliance has an active and comprehensive agenda, based on the significant results already achieved on trade liberalization by its members. For example, there will be new joint initiatives between all the export promotion agencies of each country, as well as much closer cooperation on climate change research, student mobility, and a way to make migratory measures more flexible.

The alliance has a very simple hierarchy. It has a summit of its leaders; a council of foreign affairs and foreign trade ministers; a high level group, which really is composed of the vice-ministers of foreign affairs and foreign trade; and technical groups, who will be looking at services, cooperation, communications, institutional issues, institutional affairs, trade and integration, intellectual property, and government procurement.

What is Colombia's view of the Pacific Alliance? Colombia sees it as very pragmatic mechanism with not a lot of institutions. It does not seek to impose any restrictions on the existing integration initiatives in the region. On the contrary, it complements and promotes the creation of ideas in order to enhance integration opportunities and contribute to strengthening the economic and trade relations. It is an open process, involves the participation of other states, and according to the framework agreement, third countries can participate as observers or special guests.

Colombia's interest is having a platform for deepening trade and investment with the countries in our region that share our values, share a commitment, and have a like-minded way of looking at the future in economic terms. The alliance allows the entry of Colombia into some of the most dynamic markets of the Asia-Pacific region.

The consolidation of the Pacific Alliance will allow for deeper integration, not just goods and services, but much more. Harmonizing the rules of the four countries will eliminate many unnecessary barriers so that the alliance market will be bigger, and its common rules will attract a lot more in foreign investment. This way, the whole region can achieve greater growth and reduce poverty and unemployment.

Colombia will assume the pro tempore presidency at the summit of the alliance next May 23 in Cali, Colombia.This will be the seventh summit at the leader level since April 28, 2011.

Currently, we have nine member countries with observer status: Australia, Canada, Costa Rica, Spain, Guatemala, Japan, New Zealand, Panama, and Uruguay. Costa Rica and Panama have made clear their intention to become member states.

I'd just like to mention two recent developments in the Pacific Alliance. One is that last November Mexico announced that, pursuant to an agreement in Chile, nationals of Colombia and Peru who are travelling to Mexico will no longer require a visa if they're coming for non-commercial exchanges for up to 180 days. That is a very big advancement. It means that our consular and our immigration authorities are working much more closely together, allowing for the free movement of people.

The other is the launch of our platform for student academic mobility, which initially is looking at each country awarding a hundred scholarships. The first call will be for 50 scholarships per country, to be granted in the second half of this year to accomplished students so they can get higher education in the member countries.

I want to finish my statement by saying that our aim is to complete the tariff liberalization for 90% of goods this year and the phase-out of the remaining 10% in a maximum of seven years, to be agreed by May 2013. That's the purpose, and this should happen in May, in Cali.

I think that pretty much covers it, and I would open it to questions. Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Very good. We certainly appreciate that presentation and the opportunity for your input.

We'll now have an opportunity for questions and will start with Mr. Davies.

The floors is yours, sir, for seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And thank you, Your Excellency, for being with us today.

I want to start with this. We heard already, and you've repeated today, that you expect the tariffs on 90% of goods to be removed by the end of this month. If Canada were to join the negotiations after these tariffs were removed—we're an observer now—would we have an opportunity to negotiate those tariffs, or would we have to sign on and agree that the 90% of goods without tariffs would include Canadian goods in those areas too?

3:45 p.m.

Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte

Unfortunately, I think that question is above my pay grade. What I can tell you—

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mine, too.

3:45 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:45 p.m.

Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte

—is that if Canada were to decide to join, it would have to sit down at the table and negotiate, as it is doing at TPP and elsewhere, and see what it can achieve or not.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Okay, so we're not quite sure of that. Fair enough.

I want to ask you about the integration. You said that you're looking at an agreement beyond goods and services. Of course, we know that Canada just recently concluded a trade agreement with Colombia—only 18 months ago, in August of 2011. I take it that investment is not covered in that trade agreement or we don't have a FIPA with Colombia. Is that correct?

3:45 p.m.

Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte

No, there is a chapter that covered the protection of investment. What the Pacific Alliance does, going beyond goods and services—and I didn't mention investment, or if I did, what I meant was the Pacific Alliance also covers the integration of capital and the liberalization of movement of people.... Those are the third and fourth liberties, when you're talking about trade and trying not only to allow certain services allowed, which is what a typical FTA provides for, but also working on the integration of capital. It has to do with banks. It has to do with integrating stock exchanges and movement of people.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

That's what I was going to get to.

Just so that we're clear, our trade agreement with Colombia already covers goods, services, and investment in the orthodox ways. You talked about further integration beyond that, and you've just mentioned some examples. I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about what areas you see as being further integrated between Canada and Colombia beyond what's already covered in our free trade agreement.

3:45 p.m.

Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte

I cannot speak about Canada, because Canada has chosen so far to be an observer. They get to attend the meetings where they go. If the Minister of Foreign Affairs shows up, he can attend the meetings. He can speak. He cannot negotiate.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Maybe I'll rephrase it, Mr. Ambassador, then. What sort of areas do you foresee being the subject of deeper integration beyond goods, services, and investment?

3:45 p.m.

Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte

One of the key ones is harmonization of rules, which is different from recognizing rules. If you harmonize rules, if you manage to have the same processes and procedures for many of the goods and services, immediately your market becomes a lot more interesting. You don't have to label and put everything just for the Colombian market, but whatever you produce—wherever you produce it—is destined for the Mexican, the Chilean, the Peruvian, and the Colombian markets.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Can you help us understand the harmonization of rules. In what areas or sectors, for example, will that take place?

3:45 p.m.

Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte

It will be in most sectors affecting the economy: the sale of goods, labelling, financial services, and many of the issues where, as long as you continue to advance, you're creating a bigger market.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

I see. Thank you.

The proposed alliance is a pluralistic trade block. We've recently seen a worldwide proliferation of bilateral and plurilateral trade negotiations, leading to what many are calling a spaghetti bowl of trade agreements.

Some of the criticisms of that are that we're creating a trading system that is complex, inefficient, contradictory, and confusing. Someone said that the most complicated job in the world is going to be a customs officer, trying to determine what goods and services apply, depending on the country or the trading block from which the goods are coming into your country.

Most economists agree that what we really need and should be aiming for is a global rules-based system targeted at growth, sustainable development, and poverty alleviation based on a multilateral approach involving all 159 members of the WTO.

Your Excellency, what is your government's position on a multilateral approach to trade?

3:50 p.m.

Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte

I remember reading in university many years ago Mr. Bhagwati's writings and reading about the importance of having an international approach. I'm not an economist, but any economist will explain to you that if you have a multilateral approach, theoretically—and that's the problem—you are amending the flow of commerce, and everybody is benefiting.

But the problem we see, and the way Colombia sees it, even though we are a member of the WTO and we care very much for the WTO, is that we're not seeing progress quickly enough. We don't know how long it will take for the Doha Round, which has been around for 12 or 13 years, to be finalized. If it ever comes to that—and Colombia was present at the beginning of that round and the Uruguay Round, and that took awhile—we will be there.

We very much believe in multilateral trade liberalization. In the meantime, we need to conquer new markets and we need to make our own market more competitive.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

One of my concerns is about this being a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. As countries accept that Doha is stalled and proceed to put their resources into bilateral or plurilateral negotiations and don't spend any time on the multilateral talks, the multilateral talks, by definition, don't occur.

Does Colombia have any official policy on multilateralism?

3:50 p.m.

Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte

Colombia believes in multilateralism. It is a member of the WTO. We have a very strong embassy there. Our government has been ready to advance in that round. It's just doesn't seem as though it's going to happen very soon, but we certainly hope it does.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

I'm going to ask you a quick question, which I asked the ambassador to Peru.

We have the TPP going on right now. Four of the five member countries we're talking about here, including Canada, are already at the table on a Pacific trading block. Presumably, the exact same issues are being discussed at that trading table.

Do you see duplication between the Pacific Alliance and the TPP? Could you maybe explain the differences between the Trans-Pacific Partnership and this particular trading block, the Pacific Alliance?

3:50 p.m.

Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte

Colombia is not a member of the TPP. I have to start with that, but I think there is a significant difference.

The significant difference is that TPP is an ongoing process. Canada, I know, and Mexico recently joined it. If and when it happens—and I'm sure it will—it looks as if it will comprise a free trade area of goods and services, and investment. It doesn't go beyond that. It doesn't go for harmonization of rules. It doesn't look to create a big common market of some kind. That's one difference.

The other is that we're not there.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Mr. Keddy.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Ambassador. It is always a pleasure to have Colombians in the room. We have spent a lot of time at this table over the bilateral free trade agreement with Colombia. It was a long and tortuous process at times, but we finally were successful with it.

So congratulations, and congratulations on your posting.

A couple of questions stand out. Number one, I think it deserves a bit of a comment on what happened with the Doha Round. Really, it was not that other countries had a self-fulfilling prophecy in the Doha Round; it was the fact that Doha had stalled completely. The reality is that many countries in Doha had changed from emerging economies to mature economies and still wanted to be treated as emerging economies. There were huge advantages to that in the Doha Round.

The difficulty of trying to get everyone in the WTO on one page proved impossible. I agree with you that it would be great, if we could, to get it back on track, but it doesn't look as though that's going to happen any time soon. That is what forced countries such as Colombia and Canada to seek first of all bilateral relations and then stronger trading relations, to counterbalance some of these other agreements.

If you compare the Pacific Alliance with the TPP, the latter is much bigger, but it's also going to be, I suspect, much more difficult. I see comments in the paper suggesting that it may be done in the next year. I think that would be ambitious—I would be welcome, but extremely ambitious. Here, by contrast, we have an example of the Pacific Alliance, and if all the countries joined, we could have the eighth largest economy in the world.

The advantages to that for Canada are huge. We would be trading with many traditional trading partners, but trading partners with whom we already have bilateral agreements. We have already settled a large number of obstacles in those bilateral agreements. So it would make sense that to go to this more plurilateral agreement would be advantageous not just for Colombia but for Canada as well.

Specifically, what do you see as the greatest advantages to Colombia of the Pacific Alliance?

3:55 p.m.

Nicolás Lloreda Ricaurte

Thank you.

I think Colombia has been looking for a while for an initiative in which to find countries that share some values, such as the rule of law, an open market, more integration, and a harmonizing of rules to benefit and attract foreign investment. We found this in the Pacific Alliance. We found that Peru, Chile, and Mexico share those values and want to go forward. We have many things that we believe in together and want to accomplish together. We see a big value, and again—I'm sorry to repeat myself—the purpose is to go beyond a typical free trade area of just goods and services and go much further in terms of integration.