International Trade Committee on Nov. 26th, 2013

[Col John Cody]

I agree completely. It's not just in the aerospace and defence sector; there are other sectors that are going to suffer as well.

At some point in time, someone has to turn around here and get the advanced education. The community colleges are doing a marvellous job here but they're still not teaching all the right things. There are skills and trades that aren't here now that are going to come as a result of this. I'm quite convinced of it, and if they don't have the ability to train people, then people will have to come in from offshore, and it won't then take very long for you to see all of these offshore people coming in before the guys here sit up and take notice and decide to start training some people. That's when it would happen, I think.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

I am from Calgary, Alberta, and I have seen a lot of people from the Atlantic provinces go to Fort Mac, etc., for high wages, etc.

Do you feel that with all these opportunities coming to this region, that Nova Scotian ex-pats, so to speak, might return to seek some of the opportunities presented by CETA?

[Col John Cody]

Absolutely I do. There are any number of them. You talk to them on an aircraft, when you're flying here or there or somewhere. They're just waiting for an opportunity to come back. The boys love it here.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Fiander, may I quickly ask one straight question? In your view, based on the information you have regarding this agreement, do you think on the whole this agreement is for the net benefit of Canada?

[Winston Fiander]

No one is going to disagree with expanding markets. That's a win-win situation. But it's how you go about it. The devil is in the detail, as we say.

From the point of view of the fishery, we can go about it, as I've said before, by shrinking the industry and concentrating it in the hands of a few, or we can think more broadly, think distributive justice, and ensure that all the small players who are out there, who land that $1.8 billion worth of product in Atlantic Canada and Quebec, are protected.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

I was not around when NAFTA was negotiated or signed. You may have some information on that, whether the level of consultations before NAFTA was signed were as extensive as they were before we signed this agreement in principle. Would you have any comment on that?

[Winston Fiander]

I'm not aware of the consultations that occurred.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Why I say that, Mr. Fiander, is that I was in Mexico City at interparliamentary meetings. Our Mexican counterparts told us that since NAFTA was signed, their business has increased 667%. What I heard during this committee business is that there were industries, for example the wine industry, that were very concerned when NAFTA was signed, and now they are one of the happiest industries in Canada.

What I'm getting from you is that you are looking for details at this point, so you are not yet against this at this moment.

[Winston Fiander]

No, but I have concerns.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you.

Very good. That takes us to Mr. Chisholm.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to our guests for your contribution.

I haven't heard anybody today or yesterday, frankly, step up and say this is all or nothing, or this is all good without any consideration of the potential impacts. I think people recognize the fact there will be impacts and are asking questions about those will be. I think the government that is negotiating this deal has some responsibility to share information on that and to recognize that people aren't stupid. They know that overall it may be good, but they've got to listen to and respond to some of the negatives.

Mr. Fiander, the point you make about the owner-operator fleet separation policy is dead on, as far as we're concerned. I always say that the best way to ensure a sustainable fishery is to make sure that the people who are fishing it have access to and own it, and that the ownership is adjacent to where people are fishing.

I remember having that discussion up in the south coast of Labrador with people from the Labrador shrimp company, and throughout Atlantic Canada.

I have been in discussion with some folks trying to nail down whether or not the owner-operator fleet separation policy is in jeopardy as a result of CETA. I have to tell you the sense I'm getting is, and I'm continuing to explore this, is that people are less concerned about CETA and more concerned about the TPP, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, as that may have more of an impact on the programs you've spoken to.

I certainly think it's incumbent upon us, especially given the access to the resource, that we do everything in our power to protect the small boat fishery.

[Winston Fiander]

Specifically, I think the negotiators should be mindful of the point that Scott Sinclair is making, which is that we can protect certain policies today by putting them in an annex, but that once they're there, they become targets for attack.

How do you resolve that attack? You do that by referring it to some external international organization that will pass judgment on it, and then we will have lost control of a very important industry to Atlantic Canada.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Etchegary gave an example of that earlier, when he talked about the amendments to the NAFO agreement back in 2007 that ended up coming back.

To Mr. Cody, I heard in your testimony and in your response that clearly you're bullish about this deal. I have no problem with that. But I think I heard you say something similar to what Mr. Risley and others have said, that there will be negative impacts.

My question to you would be, do you think it's incumbent upon the negotiators, the government in this case, to be able to identify what these impacts and dislocations might be and to prepare for them?

[Col John Cody]

To the extent that they can. I think if government could do it, that would be excellent.

There's bound to be areas that were not forecast and there's bound to be areas that were forecast. People are going to say, “Woah, look at that; it's working. I didn't think it was.”

That's the way I think these things go.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Do you think they have a responsibility, while they're talking about all of the benefits, to also acknowledge that there may be some negative side effects?

If you can identify in this sector that there's going to be an improvement, you surely should be able to identify that in this sector there may be some issues.

[Col John Cody]

I'll bet you those discussions have already happened between the federal government and the other 12 levels of government in Canada. I mean, they've all signed on, temporarily.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Very good.

Our last questioner is Mr. Cannan.

The floor is yours. Five minutes.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses. I'll try to end on a positive note. I'm more of a positive person than a negative one.

There's lots of negativity coming from the other side there. It reminds me of a Willie Nelson quote that says, "Once you replace negative thoughts with positive ones, you'll start having positive results."

Mr. Fiander, do you have any positive thoughts about CETA?

[Winston Fiander]

I've already said that I think that expanding the market is a positive thing. Reducing tariffs is also a good thing.

But let's not get carried away by your positiveness; there are dangers out there and let's pay attention to them.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I'm a realist and a pragmatic person. I think we've heard some of those things in the past.

We also looked at the straw people who are drawn up into the negativity and the fearmongering that was brought forward by NAFTA from 25 years ago, and the 4.5 million jobs that have been created and all the economic opportunities that are a result of trade. Some people say that they support trade, but they haven't supported a trade agreement yet. I understand there's no perfect agreement, but Canada as a nation relies on trade, so we need to continue to find solutions.

We've worked with our provincial partners, municipal partners, and stakeholders across Canada. One of these stakeholders we heard from yesterday was a very inspiring young lady. Joyce Carter is the chair of the Halifax Gateway Council. She talked about the $115 billion megaprojects. I keep thinking about that number, as I wasn't aware of the incredible opportunities.

I was reporting to some folks back in British Columbia, my riding in the Okanagan. We hear a lot of the negatives from the Maritimes, but I think there's so much hope and opportunity with a $115 billion megaproject.

My question is to Mr. Cody. First of all, I want to thank you for your decades of service to our country. You're continuing to use your experience to help not only Canada, but the United States, our biggest trading partner.

Do you feel that with all these government investments in aerospace, shipbuilding, the maritime helicopter, and the Aurora modification, does it give aerospace and defence a head start in taking advantage of the growing markets in the EU?

[Col John Cody]

Well, it should. I'm not sure that the markets for those kinds of products are growing, though, in the EU. Have they not put fences around that? We basically put fences around our A&D sector, not civilian aircraft, but military product, which is the expensive stuff.

That's a very good question.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

How about for suppliers and overall industry?

[Col John Cody]

They're going to benefit. They have to benefit. I know how that stuff sort of unfolds. If they've got access now to $1.7 trillion or $2.7 trillion, whatever it was, of markets in the EU, sure, some of them are going to come here, but it has got to be beneficial to us.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Where do you see the short-term opportunities, from a committee and a government perspective, in engaging businesses to prepare them for this CETA agreement?

[Col John Cody]

I think the businesses that will succeed are working MERX every day. They'll work the EU stuff and the EU will be reading our MERX, and that's going to happen naturally and very quickly.

They're smart boys you're dealing with, big guys too, you know.