International Trade Committee on June 18th, 2019

[Bob Lowe]

Sure. I guess the words we're looking for is we know it's there. If this gets ratified by all three countries before the fall calf run, as an industry, we know that it's there. We know we can count on it. We know we have the U.S. for our market.

I said in here somewhere—and this is trade all over the world—that it adds in excess of $600 an animal. If you consider that long term, the feeding industry in Canada, long term cash to cash, it's an $18-a-head profit. Six hundred dollars is a pretty big number.

[Peter Fonseca, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Chief Bellegarde, how do you see the impact of this CUSMA on reconciliation?

[National Chief Perry Bellegarde]

It is a form of economic reconciliation, when you look at it in the bigger scheme of things. There are going to be a lot of opportunities on the procurement side, but as well there are references to textiles. There's internation trade between the tribes in the U.S. and Canada.

You can look upon this as economic reconciliation on an international level. That's how we can look at it. It's by far the most progressive trade agreement in Canada. It's not perfect. We say that perfection is the enemy of good. However, it's a start. We have to keep building upon that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

We're out of time. We're going to start our second round.

Ms. Ludwig, you have five minutes, please.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses.

When I was young, my grandfather was a cattle farmer in southern Ontario and owned five farms. If we look at where we are today and you were telling him what the future could look like, how would you have told him to prepare for the future?

[John Masswohl]

We'd really like to get more cattle on the ground. I think that's the main thing holding us back. We have great access now with CPTPP, with the CETA, with the U.S. The biggest complaint we get around the world about Canadian beef is why isn't there more of it.

As I say, competition for land is a big deal, particularly in southern Ontario. It's becoming more and more suburban in some of those traditional farming areas. Maybe your grandfather's farms are now a neighbourhood. I don't know.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I think some of them are quarries.

[John Masswohl]

Yes.

Anyway, every farmer has to look at the piece of ground they're on. What is the maximum value of that land? Is it in agriculture? Is it outside of agriculture? What sector is it?

Cattle are moving, and to be a cow-calf producer, to produce those calves takes a lot of land. We're seeing that it's hard to do that in Ontario these days. Maybe you have to move a bit farther north, maybe out west. Maybe we need to move those cattle a little more, and we need some policies to encourage that.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you for that.

I represent New Brunswick Southwest. Over the last four years, in terms of lobbyists and advocates in my office, certainly the Atlantic group of cattlemen have been in, and they would like access to the Crown land in terms of some areas for expansion. What are you thoughts on that?

[John Masswohl]

Maritime beef production is fairly small compared with that of the rest of Canada. We have about 40,000 mother cows, beef cows, in the Maritimes region. They have a Maritimes beef strategy to get that number to 60,000. On a percentage, a 50% increase is huge.

Access to those grazing lands is part of it. They have a lot of it. Part of it is training for the producers, and education. Part of it is just about financing, the ability to hold more cattle. We have a very extensive strategy for the Maritimes region. We just need to get somebody to say, “Let's do it.”

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

In terms of expanding, let's say, the Maritimes' cattle reach, but also even looking at Ontario or even the west, one of the comments you made was on access to labour.

I think about when I was young. My mother came from a family of nine. My father came from a family of 14. There was labour. Whether or not they wanted to work, they we're working.

I'm wondering, when you look forward at expanding the industry, getting more cattle on the ground, and the access to labour in Canada—but also to Mr. DiCaro in terms of international labour—how are we going to grow our labour force to encourage those small farms to continue?

[John Masswohl]

You're right. There are not as many farm kids as there used to be. Maybe out of seven or eight, one of them wanted to stay on the farm and the others wanted to get off. Now there are fewer of them, and they know it's hard work.

We're in a situation now in Canada.... There is a shortage of at least 50,000 people working in agriculture. I'm not talking about just seasonal workers who come at harvest. I'm talking full-time, year-round jobs. Some of that's in primary agriculture. Some of it's in the processing facilities. If you go to any beef packing plant across the country, they are chronically short—at least 100 or more—of workers. They have shortages.

One example particularly is in the facility in Guelph, Ontario. We have for a long time wanted to get them to go from one shift to two shifts. Now with those changes in the trade flows of the cattle that we were talking about, there is not enough capacity to handle all of the cattle in one shift, but there aren't enough cattle for two shifts. They could get enough cattle for two shifts by bringing them in from the U.S., but then they run into the labour problem. They just don't have enough people.

These are good union jobs. They pay well more than minimum wage. But it's hard work, and not enough people want to take those jobs.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Is there any opportunity, Mr. Masswohl, for innovation, in terms of automation? It's not to take away positions, but is there any opportunity for maybe even higher-end positions on the automation side with the shortage of labour?

[John Masswohl]

I think very much there is both on farm and in processing. I think that guys like Bob who operate facilities are constantly trying to innovate. I've been to Bob's place. I've been to a lot of producers' places. They're just doing things differently. The machinery that's available that can do things, where one person with modern hydraulics can do things that back a decade—

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Is most of that machinery imported or made in Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Just a quick answer, please.

[Bob Lowe]

No. A lot of it is developed here.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Excellent.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, Madam Ludwig, and I thank Mr. Allison for taking the chair.

We're going to go over to the Conservatives now.

Mr. Carrie, you have five minutes.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here. It's a very compressed opportunity that we have to question witnesses, so we really appreciate your coming on such short notice.

I've said it in earlier panels that in my consultations I've heard from many stakeholders who say, “Listen, I can handle good policy and I can handle bad policy, but I can't handle uncertainty.” I think we've had positive feedback overall that it's not a perfect agreement, but it needs to move forward.

I was wondering, particularly with the auto sector, Mr. DiCaro, is Unifor supportive? Are you supportive of this agreement moving forward?

[Angelo DiCaro]

On the whole, there's a lot of support for the various terms of this agreement that relate to our membership. Again, as I said, there are a lot of pieces here that have to be sorted out. We still pay very close attention to how these things are developing. That includes, as I mentioned, the uniform regulation pieces, but it's also understanding that there's a dialogue right now taking place in the U.S. I believe that the Mexican counterparts and the federal government are also looking at this very carefully to see how this is going to evolve.

I think there is support, to a large extent, but with a few caveats about the fact we don't have the full package yet in front of us.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Therefore, we can say that Unifor is supportive of the agreement. It's pretty clear.

You guys also represent the forestry industry. One of the things that we were disappointed with, like the steel and aluminum tariffs and fabricated steel—and there are still challenges with that—is this buy American clause that we have, but also the softwood lumber issues. Are you hopeful that perhaps with this agreement, we could move some of these other issues through as well for your members?

[Angelo DiCaro]

The steel and aluminum piece was quite concerning. We're also quite relieved that this was resolved. We do represent a number of steelworkers, but largely, workers in the aluminum sector. That 10% tariff was not having an immediate effect on our members, but certainly having a greater effect on the downstream aluminum suppliers. There was a general sense that if this were to sustain itself, there could be questions down the line. Certainly it's good to see that this has ended.

On softwood lumber, that's a separate trade dispute. This is a very different framework for a trade dispute that the U.S. has initiated.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Have we lost our leverage, though?

Let's say Unifor is supportive of this agreement. Do we lose our leverage?

[Angelo DiCaro]

Right. I get the question. I'm taking a roundabout way to get to the answer.

There are two separate ways of approaching it, and I think they merit different approaches. We want that softwood lumber trade dispute to end. The good thing about the new CUSMA is that where we were under the impression that the former chapter 19 special dispute settlement mechanism specifically for anti-dumping and countervailing duties was going to be removed on demand of the U.S., this was salvaged, which gives us an ongoing tool to keep this fight on, including with the WTO.

They are not short-term disputes, as we've seen four times in the past, so we hold out hope but are still eagerly waiting for this thing to finalize.