International Trade Committee on May 11th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you.

That wraps up Mr. Lebel's time.

We have time for two more slots of four minutes. Madam Lapointe, go ahead for four minutes.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Hearing your opinions helps us understand the various issues surrounding the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

Mr. Dalcé, you said earlier that some sectors were currently not protected under the agreement, but they should be. You mentioned culture, telecommunications and electronic commerce. Let's assume that we could reconsider the agreement—and that is possible. What changes would you like to see made to it?

[Jean Dalcé]

We are currently conducting international negotiations on sectors that still lack regulations. I am thinking of companies such as Google, Facebook and Netflix. Let's take the example of Netflix, which has many subscribers in Canada and in Quebec. We know that Netflix does not pay the provincial tax in Quebec. How can we do something about that?

The issue also arises when it comes to electronic commerce. How do our local or national governments intervene on those issues they are currently negotiating? They are actually tying their hands. I understand the Americans' interest in negotiating in those sectors, since those large multinationals are mainly American. However, I think the interest is different here, in Canada. SMEs are the backbone of our economy, so our approach has to be different from the U.S. approach. As a union, we urge our governments to intervene.

Mr. Lebel was asking earlier what the impact would be if Canada did not participate in the TPP. We cannot answer that question, as our governments must tell us what is at stake for Canada. To our knowledge, no research has been published by the government on the TPP to clearly describe the advantages and disadvantages of such an agreement. I believe that the previous federal government neglected that aspect of its duty. It is up to the government to reassure Canadians, and not the other way around. I feel that the effort was not made.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much for your comments.

You should know that the goal of the Canada-wide consultation we are carrying out is to hear from people on the TPP agreement and to give those who wish to be consulted an opportunity to comment. Your comments and reservations will be taken into account in our study. That is why we are touring Quebec and Ontario this week. We are trying to identify any shortcomings, and then we will see where that will take us.

I still have a little bit of time left.

Mr. Sans Cartier, when it comes to the Port of Quebec, what changes would you like to see made to the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement?

[Alain Sans Cartier]

I don't see any specific elements that should be changed in the agreement as such. However, should the agreement eventually be expanded to include other countries of the Pacific region, such as India or China, it would be considerably enhanced.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Bolduc, do you have any comments on this?

[Denis Bolduc]

May I, Mr. Chair?

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I have 30 seconds left.

[Denis Bolduc]

To answer your question, I must say that the advantage for multinationals in these agreements is obvious. We are still looking for the advantage for Canadians. One of the first things that should be done is to eliminate the dispute resolution mechanism. We should also protect the government's right to pass legislation to protect the public interest. Court actions have been launched against the government concerning environmental protection decisions. My colleague from the CSN, Ms. Lévesque, mentioned earlier the case of Lone Pine Resources, which is seeking $250 million in a lawsuit against the Quebec government. The company is challenging a provincial decision that addresses Quebeckers' interest in protecting their environment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, sir. Thank you, Madam Lapointe.

We're going to move on to the last four minutes. Please go ahead, Mr. Hoback.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I think there are some numbers we need to get out there on the ISDS side of it. Everybody talks about the liabilities that Canada has. Foreign direct investment since NAFTA started has been $5.3 trillion. Payout on ISDS awards has been $171 million, and $123 million of that was to AbitibiBowater. One case was $121 million. It was because they nationalized a pulp mill.

When you weigh the two, the numbers are weighted one way versus the other, and that talks about the importance of agreements like NAFTA.

The TD economic special report on NAFTA said that in 1993 we had $290 billion in trade. In 2012 we had $1.1 trillion. That shows you what happens. Jobs in Canada have increased by 4.7 million since 1993. When you start looking at the economic impacts, you start seeing what it does to our economy. I wish I had the numbers for Quebec and could relate them, but I don't. I think it's important we understand exactly what happens when you allow trade to happen and allow the private sector to grow and employ people.

I come from Saskatchewan. Under the previous NDP government, we had seen our kids leave, we had seen our companies leave, and all of a sudden we had nobody there to provide the services. We had no way to pay for the services we wanted. Our health care and everything else was in jeopardy because we did not have economic activity because of the policies of that government. It's amazing how eight years changes things.

I know the committee members talked about being in Saskatoon a couple of weeks ago and about all the young people who were there in Saskatchewan. That's because we allowed the industry to develop and allowed the private sector to come back and invest in our province.

You know what? All of a sudden we have to get more nurses. We need more doctors. Our communities are growing. Our small towns are growing again. The joke used to be to ask the last person in Saskatchewan going to Alberta to turn off the lights. The joke has turned around. Now the last person in Alberta coming to Saskatchewan turns off the lights.

It shows you how important it is to get the policy correct.

When we did the CETA study, one of the things that was identified in that study was the infrastructure that was going to be required to take advantage of these trade agreements. One of the things was that all of a sudden we were going to have this east-west flow. In Saskatchewan we're going to have to do a trade mission to Quebec City to look through your port and understand what you can and cannot do, because there's going to be an increase in activity through the port of Quebec and the port of Montreal out of Saskatchewan and Alberta in the prairies. I know that for a fact. Agricultural goods all of a sudden won't be going north and south; they'll be going east and west.

I think that's going to be vital for the growth of this region. The impact 10 years from now....

There's another thing I want to dispute.

They say there has been a trade deficit in the last 10 years. Let's look at the numbers specifically. Our dollar was high. It was at $1.00 to $1.10 in a lot of cases in that 10 years. A global recession was unheard of and unprecedented. In the U.S., it definitely would have an impact on trade in manufactured goods going across. One could argue that if we hadn't had those trade agreements in place, it would have been substantially worse.

What did we learn? The beef sector, for example, came back and said they needed to have more than one market. Then they looked at Asia, they looked at Europe, they looked at other countries, and that's where things like TPP come into play. They say they can compete in South Korea, but the U.S. got there first with their free trade agreement, and now they're at a disadvantage. They need time to gain back the market share they lost because the U.S. was there first.

If you look at the South Korea deal and say we lost trade, yes, we did. That's because we were late to the table signing the agreement, and that's what scares me about the TPP. If we're not there, the impact is going to be felt across Canada, and it's going to be substantial, because the U.S. and Mexico would be there.

In the case of the port authority, if we don't have these trade agreements going forward, what is your future?

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

There's not going to be any, unless they can say their future in 15 seconds.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Yeah, their future's a lot brighter than 15 seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Is that your question?

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

The reality is these facts have failed. There are a lot of misconceptions and a lot of half-truths being spun, and that's what they are: they're spun. They're not factual.

[Patrick Robitaille]

Canadian foreign trade is largely responsible for Canada's collective wealth. Reference has been made to multinationals. Let's look at the client base at the Port of Quebec. There are companies such as Southern Chemical Corporation, Glencore, Viterra Inc. and United Steel Corporation. Those are all major international players that bring goods in through the Port of Quebec to serve various plants or companies located in Canada or in the United States. Those companies generate jobs—be they unionized or not—with their goods movement activities in the Port of Quebec. Trade is the basis of those investments. The additional spaces the Port of Quebec needs are intended to meet that demand.

You brought up Saskatchewan's agriculture. Let's meet very soon, as I'm very interested in that.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

We need to coordinate that sort of thing.

[Patrick Robitaille]

Absolutely.

That's the very basis. We need new spaces to meet that demand.

Let's take for example Canadian oil, which is currently landlocked. That has really hurt the Canadian economy over the past few years. Let's not do the same to all industries. Let's make sure that we have the spaces needed to be able to engage in trade, and that's what agreements like the TPP are for.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you.

I thank all the panellists who came here this morning for doing a good job and having a good dialogue back and forth with the MPs.

That ends this fourth session. We're going to break for a minute because we're going to hear from the audience in a couple of minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

We have a mike available here and we have a few local citizens who want to say a few words. Can Martin Fournier come up to the mike? We'll give you three minutes.

Mr. Fournier, you have the floor. Go ahead for three minutes.

[Martin Fournier, As an Individual]

I will introduce myself. I am Martin Fournier, Executive Director of St. Lawrence Shipoperators.

We represent ship operators—in other words, Canadian commercial vessel owners—on the St. Lawrence. We represent a fleet of more than 130 Canadian ships and Canadian crews that handle shipping between the Great Lakes, the St. Lawrence, the Atlantic, the Arctic and the U.S. east coast. Those are our primary markets.

Our members' activities are made possible through the Coasting Trade Act, which protects marine transportation between two Canadian ports.

Although we wish Canada would negotiate and conclude trade agreements with various countries, including the TPP, we still have a few concerns over opening up coasting trade to foreign ships, as the case has been in the economic agreement with Europe. In fact, under that agreement, European ships with European crews can now or will be able to come do coasting trade between two Canadian ports with on-board crews whose cost is only about 33% of the Canadian crew costs. Therefore, it is impossible for us to compete with them.

We are worried that the TPP will continue in that direction when it comes to the domestic marine industry. We would actually like for coasting trade not to be opened up under the TPP agreement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Go ahead.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I know this is unprecedented, but we don't have as many members and you're allowing a little more time. Can we ask a question if there's [Inaudible--Editor] ?

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Well, if it's in their time, I really don't want to open it up to questions, unless it's a quick question. He has the floor for another half a minute, so go ahead.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Rather quickly, isn't navigation presently done by Canadian shippers? Don't you have navigators that...? Is that what you're talking about, or are you talking about foreign crews?