International Trade Committee on Sept. 26th, 2016

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

Thank you all for your excellent, very detailed, and locally concentrated presentations.

My first question is for you, Mr. Lomas.

From what I'm hearing, and my experience with Connors in Blacks Harbour, which is in New Brunswick Southwest, we have a company that is importing in order to export. I fully understand and appreciate the concerns around the level playing field, because we've often heard from Connors and from other companies across the country about the challenges behind the sanitary and phytosanitary requirements. You gave the example of Sweden. If the stocks were here locally, if the local herring stock were as plentiful as it was 50 years ago, there probably wouldn't be the necessity for importing.

So certainly, in terms of your concerns regarding the importing side, yes, there is work that needs to be done there, and we have heard that from different businesses. My question on that is whether you think, with the harmonization of sanitary and phytosanitary measures, there's an opportunity for us to actually raise the standards, as opposed to the concern we heard from many witnesses that we're actually lowering the standards with the TPP.

[David Lomas]

I see the TPP as a framework. It's a trade agreement among the participating members, and the relevance of that is primarily to facilitate trade among those members. We already export canned sardine products from Blacks Harbour into the United States, Australia, New Zealand, and Mexico a little bit, and we are also actually importing some product from the United States. When I say we, I'm talking about our Canadian-branded business under Clover Leaf. There's also a little bit from Vietnam on some sushi-grade frozen seafood products, through one of our affiliates in Canada.

But primarily speaking, I see that really our main competitors would be outside of that TPP set, and it's then about the regulatory environment and framework imposing challenges against our competitiveness within the canned seafood business, particularly—

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

On that, we have heard from a number of businesses the concern that if the U.S. ratified and we did not, it may have an overflow effect and affect Canada's relationship with and competitiveness in the U.S., because the U.S. has bilaterals with Japan, Australia, and others. It's a concern that some others have raised.

To the Grand Manan Fishermen's Association, thank you so much. You definitely raised the concerns and the opportunities for the local fishers to have a voice at this table, which is absolutely critical. Those are our communities in coastal southwestern New Brunswick.

On the owner-operator issue, I know the significance locally, why we want to keep it local. Could you explain in greater detail to the group the significance of the boats being operated and owned by someone offshore?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

When you have an owner-operator fishery, you have, just as it says, a person who owns the boat and they're in essence a business, a small business, but a business and they're contributing in a big way. We have only to look at the west coast to see how corporate takeover has taken that right away from people. We here on the east coast still enjoy it, although the policy has been eroded considerably over the years and we've lost some of that. When the owner-operator takes his boat away from the wharf, he generally, as in our lobster fishery as an example, has two to three people on the back end who are making what we would call very good money in our community. They're contributing. All that money stays in the community.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

What would be an example of good money?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

We've had crew members in the last couple of years who would be in the $150,000 range and upwards, depending on the captain. That's for somebody who can come out of school and go directly out fishing, with some minor investments to get there. They make a very reasonable wage, more than that, actually. In our case, where we live on an island and we're very isolated, these things are critical. That money being in the community keeps us functioning. If we take that away, and we see corporate ownership take over, for example in the lobster fishery, then our economy is closed and there's no more opportunity. We've seen this in other sectors. When you take that away from the community, cashflow is reduced and that in turn affects your businesses, your families, and so on. For us, it would be devastating. To speak in a broader term, most coastal communities are somewhat isolated, even when they're not on an island. From a broader perspective, it's really important to the fishing industry that we understand where this agreement is going to take policies like that.

In the case of Connors, they already have a quota fishery with the herring, and that is a different discussion. But the lobster, for example, is not. To see things happen that would allow that sort of thing to go on would be absolutely a devastating situation for us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you. We were over a bit there.

We're going to move to the NDP with Ms. Ramsey, for five minutes.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

Thank you so much for your presentations. I think they really give us a snapshot of New Brunswick and the concerns you have individually.

Ms. Sonnenberg, I just loved what you had to say about the bottom line and about what's good for fishermen and communities here, because that translates across Canada into what's good for the Canadian people, for our communities, and for our public health and public safety. Those things have to be protected and are paramount in anything we do, so I appreciate your words.

Ms. Adair, you mentioned evergreening in the patents. I think that most Canadians are unaware of the way that drug corporations, large pharmaceutical companies, use this to extend patents. One simple example is the EpiPen. It's not the epinephrine, which has been a drug for 40-plus years in Canada, but it's the mechanism of delivery which continues to keep the cost of that high.

I wonder if you could speak to us about the impact of less affordable medication on people here in New Brunswick.

[Leticia Adair]

I work in a nursing home. We have seniors coming to our facility and we see them come with medications that are totally new, brand names that are very similar to the generic drugs we have. I was concerned with the simple diabetic drug people have been taking. All the pharmaceutical companies have to do is change the dosage. It's slightly tweaked to evergreen it. That would bump it up to a new brand-name medication.

We see a huge epidemic in diabetes. We also see medications that are available as generics. The pharmaceutical companies, however, push them at doctors at conferences or while training. They slightly change the formula. It's a possibility and not even proven sometimes that the drug might help. People are paying an incredible amount for their medication. Our facility is run by the provincial government and the aim is to reduce costs, so we start with generics. The general population, however, is being victimized with the high prices of these medications.

For us, evergreening is a huge concern. It's not just going to be new medications that work. Some medications are just going to be transformed with a different name, a different formula.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

Thank you.

I know you didn't get to finish, Dr. Tippett. I wonder if you could finish your thoughts on food safety and the way the TPP threatens food safety for people here in New Brunswick and across Canada.

[Paula Tippett]

I was just starting to make the point that the weaker food safety standards in TPP countries would further threaten food safety in Canada. There was an example of the unsafe food imports from Malaysia and Vietnam, and how that's treated, the shrimp that are raised in human waste, and then treated with antibiotics. These things may not be properly labelled under the TPP to reflect this.

The other thing that people are worried about is the U.S. milk. Canada has banned recombinant bovine growth hormone produced by Monsanto, and the U.S. has not. People are worried about that.

The assumptions of equivalents for animal and dairy products and other food products under the TPP that well-informed members of the Canadian public don't consider equivalent, should be done away with.

Many Canadians object to forced consumption of GMOs, dairy products that might contain rBGH. Many are allergic to certain things; many object to food irradiation, and they should all be protected from harm, by either bans or labelling. The labelling of the country of origin should be clear, and of the substances and processes that may affect health adversely. It should all be labelled well to protect the health of Canadians.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

I think exactly what you're saying is the concern that we have. This alternative to the trade agreement, we know that only six of the chapters actually affect traditional trade, in the way we think about it, and I think you've all brought good examples of the other chapters that exist in the TPP. I thank you for your contribution today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, Ms. Ramsey.

We're going to move over to Mr. Dhaliwal of the Liberals. You have five minutes.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

I come from beautiful British Columbia. B.C. is a leading exporter of seafood, particularly wild seafood, which accounts for two-thirds of a $1-billion industry. It is said that, if the TPP is ratified, it will open access to Pacific nations, which will create stable, long-term predictable jobs on the west coast as well as on the east coast.

I would like to hear comments from the panel. Would you agree? Is this true for New Brunswick?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

Our experience with what we know in British Columbia is that we've seen a great downturn in the fishery, in terms of access by individuals to keep these communities going. It has been a huge concern. We belong to a group, as Bonnie referenced in the presentation, the Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters' Federation, through which we've called out to government to help re-establish owner-operator in British Columbia.

The corporate monies, again I go back to this; we're unclear about what this will mean to us. I think it would be premature for us to really get into the weeds, in terms of where this takes us, but until we fully understand the regulatory side of it and how it impacts us, I don't think we can say that it's all bad. I think we have to open up a dialogue with the industry at a higher level than we've done to date, so that we can better understand what it means to us, but make sure that we're protected in the process.

I'm not really sure how to answer it at this point, given what little we know about some of those questions that we have.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Have you been approached by any of the officials, or have you approached them the other way around?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

This is the first opportunity that we've had. We have had some discussion in the industry about it. We've had a fair bit on our plate, in the last year or so, with the owner-operator policy, so we've been very focused on that, but this has started to, of course, get more and more traction. You'll hear from the national body. I just spoke with Ms. Ludwig about that, and you'll probably be receiving a brief from the group, then hopefully, we can appear from that standpoint as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you. Go ahead, Mr. Lomas.

[David Lomas]

From a processor's perspective, with respect to the east coast and west coast—and I'm familiar with the west coast, as I worked for British Columbia Packers at one point—they're very different. You have to look at it on a sector-by-sector basis within fisheries. Salmon fishing and salmon products are very important on the west coast. The wild salmon catch is very different from what we have on the east coast.

I would refer you to the Fisheries Council of Canada for some information. It can give you some numbers and describe the structure of the respective coasts. I think it will give you some idea of which sectors are important. Each one of them has different competitive dynamics. We're all export driven, regardless of whether you're on the west coast or east coast. The domestic market requirements are, generally speaking, a low portion of the total output. We are, basically, exporters of our fisheries resources.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you.

Dr. Tippett, you mentioned that TPP would negatively affect affordable medicine. You talked about low- and middle-income families. It's my understanding that if we open up markets, if we open up free trade, it brings affordability to middle-class families.

Aside from medicine, do you think there will be a net positive gain when it comes to that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Do you understand the question?

[Paula Tippett]

No.

[Leticia Adair]

May I answer?

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Yes, go ahead.

[Leticia Adair]

On the affordability piece, just opening the market doesn't mean that the prices are going to go down, because the main aim of the pharmaceutical companies—and they're the ones who drew up the TPP agreement—is to keep the patents on medications, which keeps the medications at higher prices. If Canada, for example, were to stop a patent, as they are doing with Eli Lilly, for example, then they are sued under ISDS.

We don't foresee it. We hope against hope. It would be nice if they decreased, but they will not. NAFTA has shown that the medication prices just....