Evidence of meeting #35 for International Trade in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sectors.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc-André Roche  Researcher, Bloc québécois Research Bureau, Bloc Québécois
Patrick Taillon  Professor, Constitutional Law, Faculty of Law, Université Laval, As an Individual
Dan Darling  President, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance
Bob Lowe  President, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
Pierre Lampron  President, Dairy Farmers of Canada
Daniel Gobeil  President, Les Producteurs de lait du Québec
Fawn Jackson  Director, International and Government Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
Claire Citeau  Executive Director, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)) Liberal Judy Sgro

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the 35th meeting of the Standing Committee on International Trade. This meeting is being held pursuant to the order of reference of January 25, 2021, and the order of reference sent to the committee on March 10, 2021.

The committee is beginning its study of Bill C-216, an act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act.

We have the pleasure of welcoming MP Louis Plamondon, who is with us today.

Welcome, Mr. Plamondon. I'm glad to have you here, and of course, Mr. Perron as well.

Mr. Plamondon, the floor is yours, please.

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, members of the committee, I am very excited to be here today. What is happening is historic: this is the first time this kind of bill has been introduced. We are here in committee to debate it, and I hope our debate will show how important it is to vote for it.

Bill C‑216 is ultimately very simple. It would add to the powers, duties and functions of the Minister of Foreign Affairs the obligation to defend the supply management system fully by removing the minister's authority to negotiate those principles in future international trade negotiations. The minister would thus have no authority to sign a treaty under which tariff rate quotas would be increased for supply-managed goods or to reduce the tariff applicable where imports exceed the set tariff rate.

It is strange that Bill C‑216 should be so controversial since it has received unanimous consent on several occasions since my former colleague André Bellavance first introduced it in the House of Commons on November 22, 2005.

Since then, following every free trade agreement, the Bloc Québécois has sought to confirm Parliament's support for supply management by introducing motions for unanimous consent. On every occasion, members have supported those motions, and, every time, the government flip-flopped and did the opposite. Hence the importance of including these provisions in an act rather than a motion.

On September 26, 2017, during the NAFTA negotiations, the Bloc Québécois introduced a motion urging the government to protect markets subject to supply management. However, little more than a year later, on November 30, 2018, the government reneged on its promise and signed CUSMA, which would replace NAFTA.

On February 7, 2018, during negotiations for the Trans-Pacific Partnership, we introduced a motion seeking protection for the supply management system under that agreement. One month later, on March 8, 2018, the government once again went back on its word and signed the new treaty.

Then, on the last day of debate on third reading of Bill C‑79, An Act to implement the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, the Bloc requested and obtained parliamentarians' unanimous consent for the government to pay full compensation to supply-managed producers for the breaches contained in the three agreements. That was on October 5, 2018, and compensation was subsequently provided in part.

Lastly, on March 10 of this year, a majority of members from all parties voted in favour of the principle of Bill C‑216, which is even more significant than a motion.

I would simply like to remind members of the committee of what a vote on second reading means from a procedural standpoint. When members rise in the House to support the adoption of a bill on second reading, they are supporting the principle of the bill, by which I mean its idea and general scope. As members of the committee, you are therefore bound by that vote. According to the 2000 edition of Marleau and Montpetit's House of Commons Procedure and Practice, chapter 16, "If the bill has already received second reading, the committee is bound by the decision of the House and may not amend the bill contrary to its principle."

Consequently, we are not here to debate the pros and cons of supply management; the principle has already been adopted in the House. We are here to consider whether Canada should protect certain segments of its agriculture industry from foreign competition based on the rules of the World Trade Organization's agreements because, I would remind you, the supply management system complies with those rules.

Nor are we here to consider whether we have a right to do so. We already know. Provisions were set forth in the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, the GATT, before the WTO was even established.

Furthermore, many countries have invoked those provisions. We are not the only ones protecting certain goods. Everyone does it, even the United States, which criticizes us, because, since it has always been protected, it wants to invade what remains of our milk, egg and poultry markets.

From what do we ultimately want to protect our products? First of all, we want to protect them from unfair competition. Our main partner, the United States, violates many international trade rules while demanding more access from us. They subsidize their farmers illegally to the tune of several billions of dollars a year, which lowers producers' production costs and enables them to sell their goods locally and elsewhere at lower prices, which is strictly prohibited by the WTO. It constantly challenges aspects of our agricultural and forestry policies, as we recently saw in the softwood lumber and milk quotas cases, despite previous decisions by the WTO's Dispute Settlement Body. It is one of the most protectionist countries in the G20, but one of those most demanding of market access.

Other agreements are currently under negotiation, notably the agreement with Mercosur, which consists of Latin American countries, and other agreements will inevitably be discussed.

Incidentally, the first 16 free trade agreements Canada signed never addressed supply management in any way. So it's possible to discuss trade without involving supply management.

The supply management system has been vastly weakened by the latest concessions made by supply-managed sectors, which will now have to reorganize. We can't allow the United States or any other countries to force us to abandon our agricultural policies and practices.

I don't know what you think, but I think it's utterly ridiculous for one state to tell another what it's entitled import or export and at what price. And yet that's what's happening under the new NAFTA.

Quebec and Canada are exporter nations. That's undeniable; this has absolutely nothing to do with increasing protectionism. What we want is to be able to maintain a system that has proven itself for nearly 50 years and that still delivers reasonable revenues throughout the production chain, supports families in our regions and enables us to use our land.

Canada, as it should, has diversified policies and strategies to enable producers to live off the land and feed our people in accordance with the agricultural model they choose. Supply-managed producers, and even the entire agricultural sector, whether it be the Canadian Federation of Agriculture or the Union des producteurs agricoles, are simply asking us to preserve their agricultural model.

Thank you.

I will now be pleased to answer questions from members of the committee.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Plamondon.

We'll go to the committee members. We have Mr. Berthold for five minutes, please.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to applaud my colleague Mr. Plamondon…

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, QC

Good morning, Mr. Berthold.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Good morning, Mr. Plamondon.

I applaud him for the work he has been doing in the House of Commons for years. I urge him not to adopt the bad habits of the ministers he has heard over the years by taking a lot of time to answer because I have a lot of questions to ask him today.

First of all, I welcome my colleague's initiative. The object of the bill is dear to the hearts of supply-managed producers: there must be no new concessions on supply management in future free trade agreements with other countries. I share that position, as does my party.

In fact, it's a commitment that was made by all the party leaders in the House, and it was confirmed following the disastrous agreement signed with the United States. I believe that's the correct adjective to describe it. We've conceded both quotas and our sovereign right to export powdered milk. In short, we have a lot of work to do.

My question for the member is this: does he trust the Liberals, yes or no, to comply with this act if it becomes a reality?

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, QC

There have always been breaches following these agreements, including the one the Conservative government signed with the European Union and the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which was initiated by the Conservatives and finalized by the Liberals.

I've often heard the Liberal party's Minister of Agriculture say that supply management was created by the Liberals, that they would not touch it and that they would defend it. I don't know whether they thought defending it meant that a few breaches, in 3% or 4% of cases, were acceptable. It appears that's been the case since they've solemnly committed to defending it. However, in their minds, it didn't mean defending it 100% of the time.

Now that a bill has been introduced on the subject, I'm hopeful we'll see an obligation to comply with the act. A motion, on the other hand, is just wishful thinking. So I hope the government honours the majority vote in the House.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Madam Chair, I'd like to ask the member whether he agrees with me that every trade agreement is submitted to parliament for approval. He himself mentioned this in connection with the TPP, which the Liberals renegotiated. So all these agreements are submitted to parliament via implementing legislation to amend existing statutes. Consequently, whether it's a bill or a motion, there'll be nothing preventing a government from continuing to make concessions should it wish to do so. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, QC

That's possible, but I think governments will be cautious about it.

The people from the Union des producteurs agricoles and the Canadian Federation of Agriculture have put enormous pressure on all members, insisting that they really want this bill. I don't think farming people would be happy if it were passed and subsequently contradicted by another act. The risk to any party in power would be very great.

However, I must say the Liberals have a tendency to change statutes as they go along. I agree with you on that point.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

You nevertheless admit that a bill adopted by the House can be amended by another bill at the whim of the government in power.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, QC

It's possible, but, personally, I had a choice between doing something and doing nothing. So I chose to do something by introducing Bill C‑216, thus putting enormous pressure on the government simply because it wouldn't be dealing with a mere motion anymore, but with a bill. In so doing, I would ensure the government wouldn't amend those provisions once adopted. If it wished to amend them later on, there would be a debate and we would rise to defend our point of view. The pressure would also be on the agricultural people, as I said earlier.

If we allow the party in power do what it wants, it'll be entirely free to look into the free trade treaties. On the other hand, it will have to be a little more cautious once a bill has been adopted on third reading.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Doesn't the member think it's dangerous…

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Berthold. Your time is up.

We'll move on to Mr. Sarai for five minutes, please.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the member, Mr. Plamondon, for his passion on this topic.

I've heard what supply management is ever since I got elected in 2015 and even before that. I have no dairy farms in my riding, but I have many very close by in Surrey. I thank him for his passion specifically for the dairy sector but also for the other supply management sectors.

We are here today to study C-216, an act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act.

Mr. Plamondon, can you explain the pros and cons of this bill? What would be the positive and negative impacts, actual versus perceived?

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, QC

Thank you for your question.

As I said in my statement, the bill would limit the minister's power to concede anything in international negotiations. As I told you earlier, we've managed to keep supply management intact in the first 16 free trade agreements that Canada has signed.

Every country has its own sensitive products that it protects. We also have our sensitive products and our farming practices as well, which are unique, and we protect them.

The aim of this bill is to continue protecting in future negotiations the principle of supply management, which has been around for 50 years. What's done is done. There have been breaches, and that's unfortunate, but we can take another tack in future negotiations, such as those we're preparing to undertake with Latin America.

Here's another example. Great Britain is now independent from the European Union as a result of Brexit and is currently negotiating a free trade agreement. However, Great Britain was part of the system when we conceded 3% to the European Union. We can't allow it another piece of free trade; we can't create another breach for Great Britain. It has to demand its share from the European Union because the agreement was negotiated for the entire European Union.

Our negotiators must therefore take very firm positions. When they sit down at the bargaining table and free trade is addressed, they'll be able to respond categorically that it's illegal under Canadian legislation for them to conduct such negotiations, period. Negotiations will then focus on other issues. It's a fairly simple principle.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC

Thank you.

When it comes to farm cash receipts, I believe last year, in 2020, there was $72.2 billion, an increase of 8.3% from 2019, when there was $66 billion. This includes market receipts from crop and livestock sales, including all sectors under supply management and not. This is a significant power engine of our economy. Can you tell us the best tools and strategies for growth of the agriculture sector?

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, QC

The tools we have are quite sound. We may have beef and pork products, and even chicken products, for export to quite safe markets, markets that operate very well. We had a problem with veal at one point, but that situation was resolved and prices are very good. We also export a lot of wheat, but consumption is rising sharply because wheat can also be used for green fuel in particular.

So we have export opportunities. I don't think that protecting certain sectors undermines exports in any way. That's why the Canadian and Quebec agricultural sectors are doing very well right now.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, go ahead for five minutes, please.

June 7th, 2021 / 11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome to all my colleagues.

I also welcome my colleague Mr. Plamondon and thank him for introducing this bill, which will definitely solve some longstanding problems. Of course, nothing is perfect, and there's no magic solution, but it's preferable to have statutory provisions on the subject than not. I think that's obvious.

Before asking you my question, Mr. Plamondon, I want to correct a few points for the record.

First, the obligations under Bill C‑216 apply before any agreement implementing act is introduced. In other words, it will become part of the minister's mandate: the minister will be barred from making any commitments on Canada's behalf. Consequently, this is in no way an agreement implementing bill.

I'd also like to clarify another point in view of our colleague's previous remarks. Supply-managed sectors receive no production subsidies. That's also important to note.

Mr. Plamondon, I'd like to ask you a question that, in a way, is a kind of rhetorical question.

Some of our opponents tell us that the bill might undermine other sectors during negotiations. My impression is that everyone is a believer when it comes to supply management, but there aren't a lot of practitioners. We often hear elected representatives say they fully support supply management and that they're committed to keeping it intact but that we shouldn't deprive ourselves of certain opportunities in future negotiations. Ultimately, they say they'll keep supply management intact but want to have the option of opening up a breach.

Doesn't that argument alone indicate how necessary this bill is?

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, QC

Yes. What the producers want is that the parties not use supply management as a bargaining chip during negotiations. They mustn't agree to allow a supply management breach in exchange for exporting certain goods, for example. The purpose of the bill is precisely to prevent that kind of bargaining.

I repeat, 16 free trade agreements have been signed without touching the supply management system. Proper negotiations are therefore possible with various countries if we put our cards on the table. Negotiators will be able to say at the outset that they won't touch the supply management system because a Canadian statute prevents them from doing so. That's how great and beautiful this bill is.

Negotiators don't consult Parliament every day when they sign an agreement. They subsequently say that they reached an agreement by winning on certain points while making certain concessions. Negotiators always open small breaches because they have the power to do so. If they didn't have it, the agreement implementing bills then tabled in the House would be entirely acceptable and wouldn't attack our supply management system, which has been in place for 50 years.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Earlier you were asked whether you trusted the Liberals to apply or comply with this act. You essentially answered that you would trust them even less if there was no act. In other words, you trust them even less at the negotiation stage if there are no legal obligations and all there is, ultimately, is whatever word has been given.

Like everyone else, you agree that an act can be repealed. That's normal; we live in a democracy. The question I want to ask you seems obvious, but I nevertheless feel it's important to clarify the point: don't you think the obligation to repeal an act will prolong negotiations where parties want to open a breach in future? Then the government will have to accept the blame for repealing it before it can open that breach.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, QC

You're absolutely right. When you decide to repeal an act, you have to have good arguments and the support of the sector concerned by the act. The decision has to follow from a request from that sector.

I told you earlier that the Liberals gave answers that showed they were very much attached to the supply management system. Before agreements like the one with the European Union or the Trans-Pacific Partnership were negotiated, I saw the minister rise in the House and say that it was the Liberals who had established the supply management system and that they would always defend it. They did it even more when the United States was involved. However, did they mean that they would defend supply management 100% or that they would defend it while making a few minor concessions? When you concede 3% here and 3% there, in the end, 10% of farmers' incomes disappears. That's so significant that it can compromise a farm's success, particularly for young farmers who want to go into dairy production, for example.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you, Mr. Plamondon.

I see that Madam Chair is about to speak. So I imagine my time is up.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much. I'm sorry, but your time is up.

Mr. Blaikie, please go ahead. You have five minutes.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Plamondon, it seems to me we have a strange situation on our hands. The government claims it will never again open up breaches in the supply management system, but it nevertheless doesn't want to adopt an act that would prohibit it from doing so. In other words, it wants to keep all its options open. The Liberals are afraid it may be impossible to reach a free trade treaty with new partners if it can't open up breaches.

How should Canadians and Quebeckers who depend on the supply management system understand this tension within government, which claims it doesn't want to open up breaches but simultaneously wants to keep all options open?