International Trade Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2024

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Have there been any conversations with you about a possible delay?

[Louise Upton]

The conversations are focused on the cutover at this stage.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I understand that you've talked about the cutover, but have you discussed a possible delay of the October 21 date?

[Louise Upton]

As I said, the conversations I have been involved in at this stage have been focused solely on the cutover.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

It's okay to say no. Is the answer no? You have not discussed a possible delay.

[Louise Upton]

I have not been part of conversations other than those about moving forward with the cutover.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Do you mean that you, personally, or Deloitte has not been part of any conversation?

[Louise Upton]

Me, personally, as well as Deloitte.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

There's no plan. It's moving forward on October 21. There's been no discussion of a possible delay.

You've already indicated a $30-million cost. I assume there must be some sort of conversation happening at your end about what happens if there is a delay. You're saying that, no, there has been no discussion about that whatsoever. That's your testimony here today.

[Louise Upton]

The conversations have been focused on putting the cutover plan into place and on supporting the application. What do we need to do to be able to support this application once it is live? That has been the focus.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I get that's the focus, Ms. Upton, but I'm curious if there has been a conversation. It's important for this committee to know if the government is discussing the possibility of what would happen if we do delay. Then again, that's important information for everybody in this room to know. Is your testimony that there has been no conversation that's happened at all with Deloitte about possibly delaying the October 21 start date?

[Louise Upton]

As I said, the conversations with Deloitte have been focused on getting to the cutover and supporting the application once it is live.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I understand the focus, but again, the question was if there has been that conversation. The focus and a simple yes or no answer are completely different responses.

Let's get to what happens. What's Deloitte's role as of October 4?

[Louise Upton]

It's to continue to support CBSA in the conversion of the technology. We have an over 2,000-line plan of activities that need to happen during the cutover, minute by minute and, in some cases, second by second, and these activities need to happen in sequential order. We work with the CBSA to execute and deliver on those. Once the system is live on October 21, as I mentioned earlier, our role is to support the CBSA in the launch of the application from a technology perspective.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Are you satisfied that October 21 will be a success?

[Louise Upton]

All of our testing, all of our planning—

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I have another follow-up question, so I'm hoping you can just answer yes or no. Are you satisfied that October 21 will be a success?

[Louise Upton]

I believe that we are ready to launch and go live on October 21.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Ms. Fortier, please, for five minutes.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We have been talking about it for a very long time. As we know, it all started when Mr. Harper’s government was in power. That transition was already being undertaken, and it is ongoing now. As my colleague said a little earlier, we are at the eleventh hour. I think we really have to look into the potential consequences of a postponement, including what they would mean for continuing the process.

We received a letter from the Canada Border Services Agency dated October 1. In my opinion, it is important to read a passage from it, in which the Agency states the following:Any delay at this point would cause irreparable damage, generate additional costs (approximately $20 million for a further six-month delay), and put at serious risk the CBSA’s ability to assess an account for $40 billion a year in Government of Canada revenue.

The letter also states that several training sessions were organized and offered to employees to prepare them:… the CBSA has provided training on CARM to over 3,000 employees, including 95% of Trade Officers, who are the primary users of the CARM system. Furthermore, over 650 in-person and virtual training sessions for employees have been conducted and over 180 Regional Training Facilitators have been prepared to support the ongoing training of employees.

According to this information, it is clear that postponing for six months is neither honest nor appropriate. In this case, why insist on getting such a postponement?

We also received a letter from Magna International, a very well-known company. Unfortunately, the letter was only written in English, but this is what it says:

We believe it is crucial to move forward with this initiative and avoid further delays. Magna has invested considerable resources into preparing for the transition to CARM.

As we know, several small and big businesses are ready, and they made the required investments.

Here is another excerpt from the letter dated September 30, 2024:

The constant deferrals of CARM erode confidence and make it difficult to plan effectively. Implementing the system now will provide the certainty needed to move forward, rather than extending the period of unpredictability.

I would have had a lot more to say, but I will address the representative from Deloitte.

Ms. Upton, have you considered the effects that a postponement would have on the small and medium businesses that are ready?

[Louise Upton]

I think it's partly what you mentioned in some of those letters. It is the uncertainty and the inability for them to plan. Many have said they are ready but unable to have a solid plan as to when they can actually turn on their system and move forward with the solution.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I have one last question for you.

Imagine that the current system you are talking about—which is 37 years old—goes down. The agency notified businesses about it this morning. What would happen if we were to decide to further delay implementation of the new system? Would the current system be able to keep operating, given that it has already gone down, just as it did this morning?

[Louise Upton]

That's exactly the point. I don't want to speak on CBSA's behalf, but I think they have been quite clear in their comments throughout this program that the need for CARM is because of the aging solution and technology they currently have.

My understanding is that this morning, the system did go down around 9 a.m. I wasn't exactly sure when I started this call if the solution was even back at that point, which is part of the reason they were looking to replace the system with CARM.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

I have Mr. Williams for five minutes, please.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Campbell, I want you to reiterate the survey you sent around to your members this weekend or this week. What was that survey, and what was the response you got?