International Trade Committee on Oct. 7th, 2024

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

In short, Quebec businesswomen are on a similar level as businesswomen in the rest of Canada, and Quebec's programs are so progressive that they inspire the rest of Canada.

Where do things stand in terms of implementing programs modelled on Quebec's in the rest of Canada?

[Ruth Vachon]

It's been almost three years since our initiative was launched. We have a solid foundation, and our Maïa platform is working very well. It provides training to large businesses and women entrepreneurs; just because you want to sell to Costco doesn't mean you're ready to do it tomorrow. We help women build their capacity.

Moreover, three years is a very short time in a life cycle, when you want to change a vision of society. After three years, the network wouldn't have the means to keep this initiative going without support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Next, we have Mr. Cannings, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to turn back to Ms. Bernier.

You mentioned a couple of things. You mentioned how it would be very helpful to have more government procurement to help businesses. You mentioned the problem of confidence that you need from customers. It seems that procurement would not only bring the cash flow that you need to move from that research and development phase into full production, but it would also provide that confidence, because people could look at your track record with your government procurement contracts, and say, “This is a company that is doing well; it's doing what we want.”

Could you elaborate on that? You mentioned you haven't had much, if any, government procurement from Canada. Can you try to explain why that is, and where the problems are? If you can imagine a government program that would fix that, what would that look like?

[Ashlyn Bernier]

In the earlier days, when our technology was a little more experimental, we did attempt to participate in the build in Canada innovation program, which has since been rejigged into a program called innovative solutions Canada. I'm not familiar with the new program and how it might have changed, but our experience with the build in Canada innovation program, which was meant to be a way to facilitate early stage technology, technology that was ready to be used in government programs, was one of the worst experiences in my time building this company. It was slow and bureaucratic. We couldn't get straight answers from anyone on what steps were next, and eventually we just gave up. I would hope that the replacement for that program, innovative solutions Canada, is a lot more of a straightforward and smooth process.

I want to be really clear that we're not expecting our government to just give us business because we're Canadian companies. However, we need to be at the table to compete. In our case, we're competing with some massive, highly capitalized U.S.-based competitors that are winning contracts with the Canadian government. We can't even get in the room. We can't find our way in to have that conversation and show our product. It's really difficult to get in. We're just asking to be let in to show off that we could potentially solve this problem that U.S.-based competitors are currently solving right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

I'm sorry. The time is over, but I wanted to make sure Ms. Bernier had a chance to complete her sentence.

We'll go to Mr. Jeneroux for five minutes.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's great to welcome a fellow Edmontonian to the committee. I think we should have a motion, Madam Chair, that we always have an Edmontonian at this committee. I think it would be great.

Thank you for your testimony here today.

I think you raised a lot of red flags, Ms. Bernier, about how you can do business with NATO, the U.K., the State Department, Uber and Brazil, as you mentioned, yet it's really challenging to do business here in Canada.

Some of my questions were scooped by Mr. Cannings, but could you elaborate on what that means not just for your company, but for other Canadian companies that are looking to do business with the Canadian government, provincial governments and municipal governments?

[Ashlyn Bernier]

I'm probably hitting this point again and again, but it's because I think it is so crucial. If Canadian companies cannot find those initial opportunities at home, we are going to have such a hard time exporting, because we are then trying to do business internationally. We don't have the networks and we can't get the introductions, so we have to fight our way in. We've done that through a lot of hard work, grit and determination.

Looking back and thinking about.... For example, when we go to RFP to try to win these contracts with NATO or the U.K. Ministry of Defence, often one of the questions is, who are you already doing business with? What governments do you already have a contract with? They want to see those reference customers. They want to see that social proof, which counts for a lot in those RFPs. If we were able to first do business provincially or federally, that would just clear that path so much for us.

It's easy to say that in hindsight. Who knows? I think it's just something that this committee should consider. I know we're talking about export, but I believe that being able to export would be much easier when you already have some reference customers.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

You did reference three funding programs: SR and ED, NRC IRAP and PrairiesCan. None of those are, to my colleague's question, specific to women entrepreneurs. I just want to make sure that, through the analysts, we recognize that when asked what programs are working, those three were referenced, not the women entrepreneurship programs.

You also talked about looking to venture capital in the United States and what it means if you are getting venture capital there versus venture capital here. I get the impression that it's a negative, obviously, for nationalism, patriotism and whatnot. Is it a negative for you doing business here in Canada? Is that what you said in your testimony?

[Ashlyn Bernier]

It removes a lot of the incentives for us to maintain operations and continue hiring people in Canada. We would lose access to a lot of the programs that I mentioned. That is fair, if we make the choice to take investment from investors outside Canada and lose our CCPC status. That's a choice that we'll have to make, but it does significantly reduce the incentive for us to continue building our company here.

What really concerns me, and I think it should concern this committee, is this: If someday we have a liquidity event and we sell our company and everyone makes a little bit of money, where are they going to start their next businesses, knowing what they know and the experience that they would have gone through, especially if we lose our CCPC status?

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I think I have just over a minute left.

On the last point, you brought up the trade commissioners and what that means when you go abroad. I personally have never had any interaction with any trade commissioners. Could you elaborate on how that could be improved? How do you see it as perhaps not working right now?

[Ashlyn Bernier]

I don't have a ton of experience, and perhaps that's because some of the early experiences weren't particularly helpful. I did find that a lot of trade commissioners were just pointing us in a lot of directions, telling us that we should do business with those people over there, but not making an introduction. Ultimately, when we're looking to do business abroad—and I recognize that this is a big ask—we need connections. We need introductions. Just saying that we should be doing business with Exxon Mobil.... Yes, I figured that, but can they get us an introduction?

That's where things could be really helpful, especially from trade commissioners, if possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 14 seconds left. Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Sheehan for five minutes.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all the presenters for their fantastic testimony.

Thank you to my friend here on the left for putting forward this very important study, one that's absolutely critical.

Chair, through you to our presenters, I'm going to ask Caroline a question.

I think you mentioned that only 11% of women are involved in trade-related businesses. It's disappointing, to say the least, when we hear it's 11%. First of all, I want to ask when that study was done. I have a couple of questions around that. We saw how $10-a-day day care or reduced day care fees increased the participation rate of women in the workforce in Canada significantly. It's at record numbers now. It's the highest it's ever been. Are there any stats or numbers to indicate whether there's been any movement? It is a fairly recent announcement. Is it increasing the participation of women in entrepreneurship, in particular in trade?

[Caroline Codsi]

I don't know when that study was, but I think it's quite recent.

These numbers are indeed alarming. If I look at a parallel in terms of what's happening in the corporate world.... Look at the FP500, the 500 largest companies in Canada. Female CEOs are about 6% or 7%. I don't think we measure the magnitude of the gender gap in Canada today. It's everywhere, in every sector—entrepreneurship, corporate Canada and big organizations. That is the reality we are facing. Whether they are in large corporations, or whether they are entrepreneurs, women are facing the same obstacles. It's always the same things. There are things that pertain to women. The work we do is to provide them with all the tools so they can up their game, come out of their comfort zone, overcome their fears, pitch, network and be out there.

We can look to the government. Earlier, I had a conversation with Ruth and one of the gentlemen about tooting the horn of Quebec. I think we are definitely a leading province in many things that are instrumental for gender equality. I talked about the importance of legislation. In France, the percentage of women on boards was allowed to go from 12% to 42%, because it was just not accepted by the government. There are sanctions. Board members can lose les jetons de participation. If a board doesn't comply, there are things that can be done. Quebec is the only province in Canada that has the Loi sur la gouvernance des sociétés d'État. Hydro-Québec, Société des alcools and all of our Crown corporations have parity. These boards are 51% women. There are definitely things being done in Quebec.

I think the government's responsibility is huge, because it works. Quebec did things 25 years before the federal government did. It adopted equal pay, with the Loi sur l'équité salariale. It took 25 years for the federal government to implement this, but we've had it in Quebec forever. We had $5 day care. That was under Pauline Marois. Every government, whether Parti Québécois, CAQ or the Liberal Party, has implemented gender things that are very conducive to women's participation in the economy. It's not just about doing the equitable thing. It's because there is so much payback for the economy. When Chrystia Freeland did her budget, it was a feminist budget, because there has been ample demonstration that when we allow women to fully participate in the economy, it's beneficial to all of us, not just women. It's for our society as a whole.

I have one last thing, and we're the only province doing this: When women get married in Quebec, they keep their own last name, which is also a feminist approach you don't have anywhere else in the country. I mean, I'm from Lebanon. Living in Quebec is a dream for someone looking for equity.

There's a lot that can be done and should be done to further support female entrepreneurs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you.

My wife kept her name, too. She's a Bradford.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Okay, it's going to be all “me too”.

We have about 20 minutes left before we deal with the other business, so I'm going to suggest that we get partway through the third round. Everybody will get a few more minutes in this round.

We'll go to Mr. Williams for five minutes.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses. This has been amazing testimony so far.

Ms. Bernier, you had some great recommendations at the start. You talked about capital programs for growth and revenue, which is fantastic. We need to be growing companies in Canada.

Something that we look at to free up access to capital and financial services is open banking. In Canada, we've been waiting six years, almost seven years, for open banking legislation. Do you believe that having this legislation enacted as soon as possible is beneficial to women entrepreneurs?

I'd also like you to comment on access to capital. VC funding in the U.S. is much greater than ours, and you're seeing the results of that. We only have $6 billion a year in Canada. The U.S. has $200 billion, so it's quite a stark contrast. That might be why you're seeing more interest.

What can we do? What recommendations can you make about open banking, should it be coming, financial access and then looking at VC as a whole?

[Ashlyn Bernier]

Without getting into too much detail, we have experienced a lot of challenges with the banking options available to us in Canada. I find that there are better, more flexible, more transparent options available to me personally than there are for our corporate banking needs, and that has been a huge challenge for us.

Can you tell me a little bit more about that legislation, perhaps? I could try to comment specifically.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

The Liberal government has promised to bring forth legislation on open banking. They keep promising, and we haven't seen it.

In terms of having that access to open banking, it allows more access from individuals and businesses to different financial services and banks as a whole. Do you see that as beneficial, not only to your business but to women entrepreneurs as a whole, to have more access to banks in general and financial services?

[Ashlyn Bernier]

Without having read the legislation, based on what you're telling me, I would agree with that, yes.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

For VC, of course, it's the same thing. Obviously, venture capital is different. It's a risk by individuals who put their own funds in, but it's a stark contrast. Are there any comments you have on venture capital?

[Ashlyn Bernier]

Yes, and I guess one other comment I would make on banking is what we saw with Silicon Valley Bank a year or two ago. We want to avoid situations like that and keep that in mind with any legislation.

When we went through our series A round of funding, we talked to most major venture capital firms in Canada. Some were excited, wanted to participate and ultimately did, and some weren't. When we go to raise our next round of funding, we already have kind of covered that pool, and there just isn't a large enough pool of venture capital available for the kind of funding that companies like ours are after, companies that are interested in high growth and in getting to be massive, in getting to be one of 10, so that will be a challenge for us in the future.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, I'm going to give Mr. Baldinelli my last two minutes.