International Trade Committee on Oct. 7th, 2024

[Ashlyn Bernier]

Thank you.

The only thing I would add—and I completely agree with Ms. Codsi's statement there—is around that confidence she spoke of. We often get accused, when we're speaking with American customers or American funders, of being too Canadian, so you can imagine that Canadian women are even a step beyond that in being not confident or too humble. I think that confidence comes ultimately from customers. It doesn't come from grants. It doesn't come from programs. It doesn't come from a bank loan. It comes from customers. We have to think of the past so that we can help those companies and those entrepreneurs get to revenue generated from customers as quickly as possible, because I believe that's truly where that confidence comes from.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Okay. Thank you very much.

We will move on to Mr. Savard‑Tremblay for six minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank all the witnesses for their presentations.

I want to come back to international trade. The Canada-United States-Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA, will soon be reviewed. Each country will have a position to defend. I would like to ask our witnesses if the agreement could be modified to place a greater emphasis on women entrepreneurs who are or would like to get into the export side of things. Is there anything that could be done in that regard?

What recommendations would you have for the representatives who will sit at the negotiating table?

Ms. Bernier, since you work in that sector, I imagine that you have some thoughts on that.

Our other two witnesses are welcome to chime in afterwards, of course.

[Ashlyn Bernier]

Not being that familiar with the intricacies of that agreement, I would say we actually haven't had too many challenges around selling into the U.S. I think what's interesting.... I know I keep coming back to domestic procurement, but you may have noticed, when I listed our clients, that they include NATO, the U.K. Ministry of Defence and the U.S. Department of State. I did not list a Canadian government entity on that list, because we have not been able to do business. We struggle more to do business in Canada than to do business with customers in the U.S. and Mexico.

I would have to do more research to have more specific commentary on that.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Are there any issues with other countries? Do other jurisdictions have regulatory systems in place? Are there countries where things are generally more difficult?

You mentioned the situation in Canada and the U.S. Are there other situations elsewhere that this committee could look at?

[Ashlyn Bernier]

I think it hasn't been a struggle from a regulatory perspective. There should be more support for entrepreneurs, women entrepreneurs specifically, in understanding how to do business in different countries, especially where you might not speak the language or be as familiar with the culture. In doing business with NATO and Brussels, we had a learning curve to figure out what is normal for them. We have a large customer in Brazil, so helping me, as I am having those conversations with their procurement team and reviewing contracts, know what's normal and how I need to address them or deal with certain challenges that I would deal with differently when it's a Canadian customer or a U.S. customer would be really helpful and would potentially be something that trade commissioners could help out with in the future.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Ms. Vachon, do you have anything to add?

[Ruth Vachon]

Most of the time, we are not exactly included in these agreements. We have to make sure that our interests are represented in the discussions. We advocate responsible procurement, which is an extremely worthwhile avenue to explore. What we find is that it usually benefits big companies. As someone mentioned earlier, women need to be informed. We have to make their paths easier and include them every step of the way.

The Réseau des Femmes d'affaires du Québec has a part to play, because making these inclusions a reality is up to us; it is our job to help women get ahead.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Does that mean that there should be more information meetings and training offered on emerging markets, business opportunities abroad or programs in place in other countries, for example?

[Ruth Vachon]

Yes, precisely.

That being said, their capacity needs to be taken into account. We are more often referred to level 1 and level 2 businesses than to direct suppliers. When we do get included, it is usually not for the big order, but for the ones that flow from it.

All those who work in the responsible procurement field have measures to adhere to. That is where women entrepreneurs and us are more easily taken into account.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

What should be improved in that regard?

You said that there should be more information meetings and training offered, but also that everyone's capacity has to be taken into account.

How can we improve the level of outreach?

[Ruth Vachon]

Let me give you an example. When we want to sell a good or service to BMW, instead of selling it to BMW, we organize missions to sell it to BMW suppliers. They can be in Mexico, the U.S. or any of the jurisdictions we cover. It is about making sure that there is a pathway for us to benefit from the evolution of these businesses.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Ms. Codsi, do you have anything to add?

[Caroline Codsi]

Not really, because my work is not directly related to exports. I do not want to waste the committee's time, and I think that the previous two speakers have answered the question brilliantly. I will leave it at that.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

The committee would not have wasted its time because I only had 30 seconds left.

I will have another turn in the next round of questions. We will resume the conversation then.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Cannings, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, all, for being here before us today.

I'm going to follow up on the questions Monsieur Savard-Tremblay asked with regard to international trade.

We have, over the last decade, signed numerous free trade agreements with other countries or groups of countries—the European Union, the Pacific partnership countries, the United States and Mexico, etc. These recent modern treaties, if you will, all seem to have some language.... Some of them have specific chapters supporting women in trade.

I'm getting the sense that the witnesses here today may not have a direct link to those issues, but could they comment on this? Perhaps I'll put it this way: If you were advising the government on what to put in a free trade agreement with a country or a group of countries—for instance, the new CUSMA—what should we put in there to support enterprises led by women?

I'll start with Ms. Codsi.

You were just finishing off there. I don't know if putting it that way gives you anything more to add.

[Caroline Codsi]

Well, yes. What I want to say is that, in any sort of agreement, I'm one who's always been in favour of legislation that actually helps women get to their goals, because if we look at, for instance, quotas of women on boards.... It has nothing to do with what we're talking about here, but there's a parallel. In France, they have the Copé-Zimmermann law, which requires boards to be 40% women; it worked. Here in Canada, we have half of that. When you legislate, you find the women; if you don't legislate, you find excuses.

With regard to anything that we are working on with another government about an agreement, if we say that we expect in that agreement that women will be given a certain portion, then I think that's going to happen because there will be efforts made on both sides of the border to make sure that the women are found, that the women are supported, that the women are propelled.

I think we have to take into account the fact that.... It's just like in politics. You know, everybody says that if you want a woman to run for politics, you have to ask her, on average, eight times before she actually does. Even for women entrepreneurs, it's the same thing. They'll go into entrepreneurship much later than men do. They'll miss out on a lot of grants that are supposedly for young entrepreneurs because they wait until their kids are older to start, etc.

I think there are ways to be very deliberate in terms of getting the women to decide that this is what they want to do and in terms of making sure that, whether it's a government, an organization or a company that wants these services, they're making sure that they're giving a fair chance, taking into account the fact that women are often not as good at pitching, not as good at networking, and less self-confident. They get less funding. Then, if you actually embed that in an agreement—call it quotas if you want—I think it's really worthwhile. Europe has shown us how it actually works.

I hope this helps.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

That's very helpful. It actually just crystallized things in my mind. We have chapters on the environment and on labour, for instance, where we want to ensure that the countries we're trading with are on an equal footing with labour practices and with environmental regulations. The example you gave, I think, is a concrete example of where we could up the game here to make sure that we're on the same level with countries such as France. I mean, that was interesting.

I'm at a minute and a half, so I will turn to Ms. Bernier now and ask if she has anything to add. If not, I have another question.

[Ashlyn Bernier]

I think it's important to note that, as a private business, we can also explore different structures. For example, we have a U.S. subsidiary, as well as a European subsidiary, so those agreements have to take into account that we can—and I think should—be incentivized to keep business flowing through our Canadian entity and not be forced to run it through one of our subsidiaries.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay, but in terms of these chapters on gender rights and promoting equal opportunities, those chapters have not affected your business in any way, haven't helped...?

[Ashlyn Bernier]

No, or maybe they have and that's why they're not top of mind for me.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay.

I'll leave it there for now. I'll come back in the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Martel, you have five minutes.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us today.

Ms. Vachon, how do you view existing government and private initiatives to support women entrepreneurs?