International Trade Committee on Nov. 27th, 2024

[Louis-Frédéric Lebel]

We have been embroiled in a dispute with the Americans about this subject for 25 years. It has become a business plan for the American coalition. Every time the provinces try to give in to demands, the rules of the game change, and a few years later we are facing the same problem.

We have to negotiate. I don't think we will ever reach an agreement by going to court. I think we have to negotiate in good faith for all actors, and that includes consumers, who are paying more for their products in the United States at present because of the tax being applied.

Given the situation we find ourselves in, with global warming and with a housing shortage all over North America, it seems to me that wood is part of the solution and should not be the subject of any trade disputes.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Lebel.

What do you think, Mr. Bromley?

[Jeff Bromley]

I'm sorry; could you repeat the question?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'll go to Mr. Dunn first, because of the translation. It's a long question.

[Ian Dunn]

I hope I have the right translation as well.

The dispute actually goes back to 1794 with Jay's Treaty between Canada and the United States, so this has been going on for a very long time.

You need a willing partner. As far as we're concerned, it doesn't appear like the U.S. industry is all that interested in negotiations.

What I would encourage the government to do is look at what we can control, and that includes a focus on competitiveness, attracting investment and reducing costs. These are things that will help the industry and are within the control of provincial and federal governments.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

What could we do to be more competitive? Do you have any suggestions? We are looking for recommendations.

[Ian Dunn]

I'm sorry; you'll have to repeat that in English for me.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

No, I can't do that.

How much speaking time do I have left, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have a minute and a half.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Lebel, I will continue with you.

Do you have any other recommendations to make for us, to help the Canadian government put itself in a winning position, as you said in your opening remarks?

We know that the Canadian government has been working on this issue for years. You talked about going to court, but there may be other ways. We have invested in the industry. Is there something else that could be done to provide support and bring calm to the forest industry?

[Louis-Frédéric Lebel]

One way would be to help our industry continue to develop and innovate, so wood products could be used in other sectors that are not currently accessible, or accessible only to a very slight extent, such as multipurpose houses. That is a whole new innovation that came about in the last decade and could help us. We could construct this kind of building in Canada. We could even persuade our American friends that this is the road to take.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Have you received any investments form the government to support you in your innovation efforts and put you in a winning position?

[Louis-Frédéric Lebel]

Unfortunately, because of the position taken by the federal government, which is to defend us in the courts, it is unable or unwilling to help us via its various financial arms, such as Economic Development for Quebec Regions. Often, we often submit ideas and projects but are told that we cannot receive federal aid because Canada is in a dispute with the Americans about softwood lumber. This is absurd. As a business, we are caught in a vicious circle.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, you have two and a half minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Thanks to all the witnesses for their presentations.

My first question is for Mr. Bromley, from the Wood Council.

There is a big impact on the workers and communities suffering layoffs and shutdowns, but on top of that, the fact that there are no trade agreements is also creating a climate of uncertainty that I assume limits any new investment in certain products that might be good business opportunities.

Is that the case? Do you agree with that statement? If so, what effects is this uncertainty having?

[Jeff Bromley]

I think the impact is tremendous and it's certainly set up as a barrier. As I mentioned before, I had the opportunity to tour a mill in Chibougamau, Quebec, last week with the Chantiers group. It has a traditional sawmill, but it also has a mass timber product mill that produces these mass timber beams, walls, roofs and all sorts of really high-value products that it's taken the initiative on and invested in. That's one of the good-news stories.

There's a lot of opportunity out there throughout the country that's now hampered. That investment won't happen, because of the uncertainty and because they don't know what their costs are going to be. They don't want to take the risk if they're just going to continue to be hammered in their ability to earn a return.

Until we get something settled, from a federal government standpoint, we have to either try to incentivize it for companies to invest in such products as mass timber and things of that nature, or get a deal so that the certainty is there and they will naturally do it.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Regarding the agreement, to your knowledge, have there been any advances in terms of updating the Softwood Lumber Action Plan that ended in 2020? What do you think should be the included in the action plan as a priority?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Give a brief answer, sir.

[Jeff Bromley]

Again, I think the only answer right now, save putting all our focus on getting a deal, is to try to produce some certainty to get folks and these companies to be able to reinvest in our industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Again, thank you to the witnesses for being present in this important study and for their expertise, given the immense difficulty we are currently met with.

We have serious challenges—there's no question about that—but the workers who are in these mills have extraordinary challenges. The cost of living continues to increase. We see this tariff threat, which will largely displace their ability to go to work. We see the impacts on rural communities, in particular. Canada's rural communities have taken a lot of hits, from natural disasters to recovery from those expenses, the cost of living and these tariffs that threaten their industry. It's quite serious.

The message I take away from today, especially from Mr. Bromley, is that we need to act and make it a national priority for us to finally deal with a decades-long problem. It's one that saw the Conservatives lose over 10,000 jobs in mills, and the current Liberals are proposing, through inaction, to lose even more. That's the real, credible, serious issue we're dealing with today.

I think my question is for Mr. Bromley. Can you share with us some final words on what we can do to ensure that labour, particularly, is at the forefront of these discussions?

The New Democrats are deeply committed to seeing our workers and labour unions at the forefront of this plan, because that's largely what's been missing in the past. We've seen so many workers and labour unions taking a back seat so many times in these discussions that impact their lives. We want to organize a team of people here in Ottawa and across the country who can deal with this incredible challenge by focusing our efforts on the impacts to workers, focusing on the expertise of workers and bringing in unions to help lead that challenge.

Do you agree that we need to see a whole-of-Canada approach, led by workers and unions, to achieve, hopefully, a better outcome than what we've seen in the past?

[Jeff Bromley]

I certainly agree and concur with your statement about labour having a seat at the table. I think that needs to happen. We certainly have a front row seat to the impacts of unfair agreements, layoffs, closures and whatnot. We need to be part of that solution.

I'll be honest with you. I negotiate agreements for a living. Now, do I negotiate massive trade agreements? No, I negotiate collective agreements. Nonetheless, we can bring a certain perspective to that table, a human perspective.

I'll leave one last comment. I keep hearkening back to the 2006-2017 deal. It was a deal that gave us some certainty, but it was also a deal that.... Our companies that got their money back in that deal invested largely in the southeastern United States. Now Canfor and West Fraser are among the biggest lumber producers in the United States. They're now on both sides of the border and enjoying the fruits of this disagreement, but in the United States, which is extremely unfortunate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Mr. Williams, you have four minutes, please.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for attending this very important meeting today.

Mr. Dunn, I know you represent a lot of different businesses in the industry here in Canada. We want to talk specifically about the economic impacts and what's happened with this industry in the last decade. Can you tell me what we've seen in terms of loss of jobs? We can talk about workers as a whole and plants. I know that Trenton, Ontario, had Cascades close down last year. There were 148 workers there.

Can you give us the lowdown of what's happened in the last 10 years as we haven't stood up to this industry, as tariffs have gone up and as we've seen investment go south?