International Trade Committee on Feb. 16th, 2022

[Zenon Potoczny]

If I can maybe jump for a second, cybersecurity in Ukraine is a great business, a great talent, but I think we, as Canadians, have to be a little more aggressive and co-operate with them more closely.

We at the chamber of commerce try to do that. We bring them into the trade missions for these cybersecurity conferences, and I see how Americans quickly take them away. Americans are basically taking them from under our nose. As Canadians, by being too conservative and too nice, we are losing that huge co-operation chance with Ukrainians.

Ukrainians love Canadians, they want to co-operate, but we have to be a little more aggressive.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

That's a good point. We face that too. Our start-ups get to medium size and they're gobbled up, and some are gobbled up to stop competition. It's something that we face quite a bit over here.

I think I'm out of my time, Madam Chair. Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 56 seconds.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I have a real quick question for Mr. Waschuk. I'm sorry, I don't want to miss any others, but I only have 60 seconds.

In terms of border security and operations and processing for exports and imports, are there things we can get with regard to sharing our government resources and expertise for that? A good example is that Canada has programs, such as detector dog programs, which are well respected and make the goods and services flow better.

Is there something we can do there, as well, to make sure that our trade actually grows?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We need a brief answer, please.

[Roman Waschuk]

I think working under an enhanced chapter on processing, border security and customs co-operation would certainly be very helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Mr. Martel for four minutes.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Mr. McMillan.

Mr. McMillan, I gather that, if we were to export liquefied natural gas, or LNG, to our allies in Europe, it would probably change the geopolitical dynamic and make our allies less dependent on Russia.

To what extent would Canada be able to meet the European demand?

[Tim McMillan]

That's a great question.

There have been multiple LNG facilities proposed for the east coast. Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec have all had projects. The limit is not on the resource; Canada has hundreds of years of supply. It is safely available and developable. The infrastructure is really the only limiting factor. If we could have the access, we have the resource to supply really—I don't want to say endless—more natural gas than we certainly use here in Canada.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. McMillan, Canada has had an agreement with Germany since the spring to supply more LNG. It can do the same with other countries, including Ukraine.

I still wonder how we can afford to turn down LNG projects here in Quebec, such as GNL Québec's Énergie Saguenay project, which would have been the cleanest in the world.

[Tim McMillan]

No, it most certainly would have been. The compression would have been done with hydro power. The carbon footprint of that facility and the natural gas flowing through it would be almost infinitesimal compared to the natural gas coming out of Russia, coming out of the Middle East or out of north Africa, but the political environment or the regulatory environment in Canada did not allow that project to get through the BAPE process.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

I'll continue with you, Mr. McMillan, because this issue is particularly relevant to my constituency.

I want you to explain the difference between Russian gas and Canadian gas. What are the advantages of Canadian gas? Why would it be more beneficial for European countries to export Canadian gas?

[Tim McMillan]

Canadian producers are world class. Even compared to our friends and neighbours to the south, Canada has extremely rigorous regulations around methane emissions. We have venting and flaring regulations that are second to none. The carbon footprint of a Canadian gigajoule of gas is better than any gas coming out of Russia, the Middle East or the United States, for that matter.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. McMillan.

Mr. Roche, I'm pleased to see a witness from the region. In an interview with Radio‑Canada, on January 10, you said that we would see a diplomatic solution to the conflict, not a military one. Is this still the case today?

[Michel Roche]

Yes, this is still the case. Contrary to popular belief, Russia has no interest in taking over Ukraine. It currently wants to put pressure on NATO by using Ukraine, unfortunately.

However, the domestic conditions in Russia don't provide any benefits in terms of cost. This makes it impossible to occupy a country of 40 million people, most of whom would be hostile to Russia.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, sir. I'm sorry to cut you off.

We go on to Mr. Baker, please, for four minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

Hello to our witnesses.

[Member spoke in Ukrainian]

I don't have a lot of time, so I'll be very brief, and I'll ask you to answer my questions as concisely as you possibly can.

Before I go on, I will say that I'm with Mr. Virani. I don't expect another announcement of lethal aid to Ukraine during our meeting today, but I will say that I thank all members of the committee on all sides of the House. We just passed a unanimous motion that I requested unanimous consent for in Canada's Parliament, standing firm in support of Ukraine sovereignty, condemning the Russian Duma vote recognizing the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics and calling on the international community to stand together in opposition to further aggression and to continue to support Ukraine. That is some good news as well.

I want to go to you, Mr. Waschuk, if I may. You spoke about the opportunities in provision of services, but you talked about the need for ground rules in the provision of services, which would help expand that sort of opportunity.

Could you briefly describe what you mean by those ground rules? What specific ground rules would you recommend?

[Roman Waschuk]

I'm now in the business of helping to enforce ground rules by holding Ukrainian officials to account through the business ombudsman office when they, for example, wilfully misinterpret regulations.

I think we have seen significant improvement in the regulation of the insurance market, which has moved from a weak national regulator to the national bank. That's been good news for Fairfax and its three companies here in this market.

I think helping Ukraine move in those directions that create more predictability and also continuing to press for improvements in the judicial system and rule of law...because people who own a company one day want to make sure that they still own it the next and that they can get a fair hearing in court.

We supported judicial [Technical difficulty—Editor]. I think it was the UCC that mentioned it. Adding some elements of conditionality there would probably be helpful as well.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Potoczny, thank you for being with us here today. You gave us a number of recommendations, which I'm sure we'll consider in our report. You spoke about EDC. You spoke about the opportunities available.

As we prepare our report, is there any specific additional advice that you would give to us as MPs on this committee that you believe the government should include as it's renegotiating the Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement? What would you like to see more tangibly in the CUFTA going forward, if possible?

[Zenon Potoczny]

Some of the points that I presented were the points that our members and our partners have talked about, but there are a couple of things I didn't have a chance to throw in.

One of them is immigration regulation for Canadian citizens. I don't know if you know, but if you are travelling to Ukraine, the maximum time you can stay is 90 days out of 180. You then have to go through a huge process of documents and approvals. Otherwise you get penalized.

Canada can also do something like the European Union does, where they allow Canadian business individuals and their household members to stay in Europe for up to three years on a special permit, which is easy to obtain. If we can just repeat the same thing that Canada does in Europe with Ukraine for Canadians....

As you know, everyone on the Ukrainian side keeps on asking about visa-free travel for Ukrainians. I know everybody says, “Not yet,” but just looking at the business side of things, if you can have free movement of even business people for these trade shows, business meetings or business to government meetings, I'm 100% sure we can increase the flow of deals made, the flow of deals signed and the trade and investment. Right now it's very complicated and difficult to get visas for Ukrainian people, including normal, regular business people. I would like to see these couple of things in another—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, sir.

It's on to Monsieur Savard-Tremblay for two minutes, please.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Two minutes will fly by.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Roche, let's keep talking about hydrocarbons. We were talking earlier about developing our own oil in a way that makes us more competitive with Russia, and also in terms of trade with Ukraine and Europe. My colleague, Mr. Martel, who is also your member of Parliament, asked another witness whether it would be beneficial to develop our liquid natural gas. It seems that your opinion isn't quite the same. What are your thoughts on this?

[Michel Roche]

Of course, I had to focus on the issue of natural gas development, having spoken before the bureau of environmental public hearings, or BAPE, as part of its study on the GNL Québec project.

I learned that, from an environmental perspective, there's no comparison between Russian gas and Canadian gas.

Contrary to what your colleague said earlier, it's totally false to say that the LNG manufactured in Saguenay would have been [Technical difficulty—Editor] because it comes from the oil sands of Arthabaska and northern Alberta. That's why the BAPE rejected it and why the federal government recently rejected it as well.

Operating costs are much lower in Russia, where natural gas doesn't come from oil sands. It's extracted through fairly standard methods in places where it's found in abundance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, Mr. Roche. I have to interrupt. The time is up.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

That's why we're having a hard time with our economic development projects.