International Trade Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

You're the one who referred to a strong system, strong regulations. Those are your words, not mine.

[Graeme Hamilton]

My reference to a strong system was specifically related to the fact that the ban is absolute. There is no ability to import goods made by forced labour, for other reasons, into Canada.

We have seen other regimes around the world in which there are carve-outs for goods, even if they're determined to be produced by forced labour, to still enter other economies—if there is a domestic need for the good, for example—whereas Canada's ban itself is absolute. That comes with, obviously, a very high degree of rigour and a case-by-case assessment of the goods and the enforcement action undertaken by the agency.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

That means that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry.

Mr. Groleau, go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Jason Groleau, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon to the witnesses.

We're here to discuss our study on forced labour.

Ms. Esdaile, you work for the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. What is your role at the department?

[Jennifer Esdaile, Director, Community Safety, Corrections and Criminal Justice, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

My role in particular is the director of crime prevention and community safety. I work on such elements as the national crime prevention strategy and other community safety measures.

Chad Westmacott, the director general of the community safety, corrections and criminal justice directorate, was supposed to be here this morning, and he is directly responsible for measures under the supply chains act.

[Jason Groleau, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Does your department's purview include road safety and public hazards?

[Jennifer Esdaile]

No.

[Jason Groleau, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

We are talking about forced labour, but I'm going to draw a link to public safety.

Let's talk about forced labour, which we call here modern slavery. Do you denounce forced labour anywhere in the world?

[David Hutchison]

Madam Chair, on behalf of colleagues here, in my view it's not really necessary for us to declare ourselves on an issue, but I think, generally, that humanity would consider forced labour to be an abhorrent practice.

[Jason Groleau, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Could you please repeat what you just said, to make sure we understand correctly?

[David Hutchison]

Madam Chair, as I just said, I think most people would agree that humanity would consider forced labour an abhorrent practice.

[Jason Groleau, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Forced labour exists here, in Canada.

Forced labour exists in 2025. The phenomenon known as Driver Inc. is proof of it. Here's the link with public safety. People are being forced to work 70, even 80, hours a week, but being paid for only 40 hours. If they don't deliver their cargo on time, they are on the hook for the bill. They are being threatened, their families are being threatened.

I told Ms. Esdaile that there was a link with public safety. Since these people are being forced to work 80 hours non-stop, without time to rest, do you think public safety could be affected, yes or no?

[David Hutchison]

Madam Chair, the member is raising a very important issue that, I believe, covers the mandates of many federal, provincial and, perhaps, even municipal governments, including, among others, ESDC and Transport Canada. It may be worth following up with some of those departments.

I don't think any of us at this table currently are working on that specific file.

[Jason Groleau, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

I'm going to turn to the CBSA representatives. I assume I may get some answers, at least I hope so.

How do you explain the fact that few shipments suspected of containing goods produced by forced labour are intercepted in Canada? Our allies have similar mechanisms, yet they seize a lot more shipments. Why is that? Is it due to a lack of personnel or lack of efficiency?

[Graeme Hamilton]

I don't want to speculate in terms of future enforcement action, but I can speak a little bit to the results that we have had over the five years that the ban has roughly been in place.

For the CBSA, it's a new line of business in terms of trying to identify these goods coming into Canada. I am sure the committee can appreciate that the inherent quality is different for goods produced by forced labour as opposed to other goods. At the end of the day, in a dockyard, when you're opening up a container of footwear, a shoe looks like a shoe, and from a customs tariff perspective, there are all sorts of different subcomponents of the tariff code, whether it has a leather sole, a rubber sole, etc. All those are physical, visible distinguishing features of a shoe that we can easily assess and have our officers assess.

What is more difficult is to try to make the determination about how those goods have been produced and the labour conditions that exist in the factory where those goods have been produced. One box of shoes in exactly the same container may have been produced in a factory that is perfectly acceptable, with no forced labour present, while other ones were not. It has been a bit of a process for us to learn from our partners, including the U.S. and Mexico. Recently, the EU passed new regulations related to forced labour, so we are also learning from partners in the European Union.

My colleague, Alex, spoke earlier about some of the enforcement successes that we've had. Underpinning all of that action is, in fact, daily scans of imports coming into Canada. We do have a long list of entities that we know have a high potential for forced labour production, so we scan goods and importers for those names to try to identify whether or not those shipments are coming in.

We've done proactive engagement with the Canadian importing community to flag not only the rules and the laws that exist today but also imports of potential concern. This is supplemented by the role that my colleague plays or that her boss plays, by Public Safety in terms of the supply chain legislation that was brought forward under Bill S-211 and by trying to make sure that Canadian businesses are looking into their supply chains as well. It's trying to incentivize good behaviour within the Canadian importing community. That, coupled with the backstop of our forced labour import ban, is producing results, and they stand as reported by my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lavoie, please.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us.

Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Lawton, I'd like you to clarify some things.

Since we started examining this issue, I've gotten the sense that the only measure of your work is the number of shipments. We've been talking about the number of shipments seized by Canada and by the U.S., but surely that's not the only way to measure all the work you do. Are there other indicators you use or things you do? All the focus is on the number of shipments, but there must be other ways of measuring the results of all your activities.

[David Hutchison]

Madam Chair, the member raises a very good point that this important issue requires more than just seizures and enforcement by an agency like the CBSA. It requires an education process for the importer community. These are very valuable businesses in Canada that face all kinds of economic pressures. It's really important that they have an education about the risks because one of our strongest areas of focus is trying to build more resilience within our business community. We're trying to grow the economy. It's important for them to understand the risks to their bottom line in being part of supply chains with forced labour.

In our view, the supply chains act has had a major impact in terms of bringing awareness to the business community. Thousands of businesses must submit an annual report and, in doing so, have instituted new policies within their corporate structures. It's a hallmark of their ESG policies. I think it is an important consideration to think beyond simply regulation and enforcement.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Lawton, was there something you wanted to add?

[Alexander Lawton]

Just to supplement what my colleague has said, from a CBSA perspective, we completely recognize that stopping individual shipments on that shipment-by-shipment basis is not the only effective way to address the problem of forced labour and to implement the import prohibition.

More recently, in August 2025, we supplemented that approach with an educational campaign, essentially. We leveraged what we call trade advisory notices to notify approximately 1,800 companies that we identified as most at risk of bringing in goods that represent a high risk of having forced labour in their supply chains.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm going to stop you there, Mr. Lawton. I have a limited amount of time, and I have another question related to what Mr. Hutchison said.

Mr. Hutchison, you talked about educating businesses. I've worked in banking, in business financing and at Quebec City's chamber of commerce and industry. The committee recently met with witnesses who talked about how difficult it was for a business to be part of the supply chain. One even called it a can of worms, saying that businesses had to be incredibly competitive.

In Quebec, 72% of businesses have fewer than 10 employees. I understand the desire to have a better system for big companies, but how do we help the engine of our economy, small and medium-sized businesses? I repeat, 72% of businesses in Quebec have fewer than 10 employees. Even if they get the education, they may not have sufficient financial resources to meet the requirements.

How can you help the businesses at the core of our economy stay competitive while complying with the law?

[David Hutchison]

Madam Chair, as part of educational efforts with Canadian companies, I can speak to the trade commissioner service. A core element of its service offering and support to Canadian exporters involves responsible business conduct education.

In terms of the broader business community, which in Canada is composed of many SMEs and microsized businesses, I think it takes a community of action. In that regard, I would point to business associations as being very important partners, along with provincial governments.

It takes a whole-of-Canada effort on an important issue like this.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.