Justice Committee on Sept. 19th, 2006

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Well, it's usually joy riding. That's a different offence.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

It depends on how it's charged, but I'm just saying that theft of a car, without the joy ride, would fall within the category from which conditional sentencing is being removed at this point. I would prefer an approach where we actually go to those sentences where we want to provide a clearer definition, and do it that way.

Unauthorized use of a computer, for heaven's sake, could happen to almost any of these hacks all around the world borrowing computers, and that's not--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

But Mr. Lee, it was not me who assigned the value of ten years or more to that offence; it was Parliament.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

That's true.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

So when Parliament made that determination, obviously it felt it was a very serious offence.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

It could be.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I would say that if something is punishable by more than ten years it's a very serious offence, unless Parliament made a mistake.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

In this case it's a maximum ten-year sentence. In fact, maybe you've hit the nail on the head, Minister. I'm going to suggest that we re-draw the bill so that sentences greater than ten years max.... You'd start with a much shorter list, and then you could even add to it.

I don't know whether that would include cattle theft, but of all the offences--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

We've had that discussion about cattle before, Mr. Lee.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

--I know that some people out west are really irritated at cattle theft.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

It's a serious issue in my riding.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I know that. But it's on the list now, and I'm not so sure, if you had gone around the House of Commons and made a list of the offending categories of offence, that this particular one of cattle theft would have shown up on the list--maybe, maybe.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Come to my caucus.

Mr. Lee, I take your point. If you go and actually say all right, everything punishable by more than ten years is what we should eliminate, then look at the ones that drop off. I'm not opposed to you working on that, but there will be certain serious offences that do drop off.

So if you feel that, somewhere in there, there's a better way of doing it, with allowing people in downtown Toronto to get away with stealing cattle or the like, that might be something the House may want to consider. I'm simply pointing out that it is a difficult thing to draft these general rules. We didn't want to list 200 or so crimes. For the purposes of both social policy, in terms of it being a serious offence, and drafting convenience, this seemed to be a reasonable point.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

The point is well taken, Mr. Lee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Lee.

Mr. Thompson.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you for being here, Mr. Minister.

No bad reflections on my friend Mr. Lee from across the way, but it seems to me that when you approach things in the nature that he does, once again you're concerned an awful lot about the criminal. I happen to be more concerned about the victims of crime. I think when we focus on them, we have a different view.

I would like your comments on a couple of things that I have to say. First, I believe one of the most common phrases used in our society today, when I'm out and about, is that it's not the fact that the conditional sentence is problematic; it's the fact that too many times there should jail time that just doesn't happen. That seems to be the problem in the eyes of a lot of people.

I know that for the 13 years I've been here, I've seen a lot of cases that finished in court where they were convicted and they did not receive jail time. I could probably go back over those years to see how many times not only I but several others questioned the sentencing of certain individuals that did not receive jail time, particularly in crimes against children.

I think you probably know me well enough now to realize that a major focus of mine over the years has been crimes against children. I really do not understand how a society such as we have in Canada can see child pornography grow to the industry it has become, to the magnitude it has. We just haven't looked after those kinds of things. It's problematic, creating more crimes against children. According to the samples you give, there's a lot more.

I think people are asking, what is going on? Grain farmers from my riding are in jail for selling their own grain, and the same week a perpetrator of a five-year-old in Calgary--serious crime--gets conditional sentencing? That's what's not making sense to a lot of people, because there are just too many examples of that.

I compliment you, sir, for coming forward with this bill, because I believe it's a great step in correcting that situation. I compliment you for that.

I'm just going to ask one question, and you can comment on anything that I may have said. I'm really concerned about sexual offences that are committed against children. It's very serious. I'm talking about little kids, not 17 and 18-year-olds; I'm talking about little kids. The people in this room know exactly what I mean, because we've seen too many examples of those crimes.

Will this bill prevent anyone who commits a serious crime against a child from getting house arrest?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you. Good question, Mr. Thompson. I appreciate the work you've done in this area over the years. You've been consistent in your very clear support of laws that would protect children. I think that's wonderful, and your dedication is very much appreciated.

You will recall that in the last Parliament there was a bill brought forward in respect of certain sentencing, and we were able to bring in certain mandatory minimum prison sentences on certain crimes involving sexual assaults on children. We brought in those mandatory minimum prison sentences and we worked very well with the Bloc at that time to impose weak, even week-long, mandatory minimum sentences, because as soon as we've created a mandatory minimum, a conditional sentence is no longer applicable. So my point was that although I would have liked to have seen stronger mandatory minimum prison sentences in respect of those horrendous crimes, that was all we could get through that Parliament in terms of those, but at least we eliminated conditional sentences for those.

There are certain offences that will involve sexual assault that would still be eligible for conditional sentences under this scheme because they are only punishable by five years. So conditional sentences would not be applicable. But in most of those cases, as I understand it, a crown attorney could, if it's a serious case, proceed by way of indictment, which would then foreclose the possibility of a conditional sentence or house arrest. So we'll have to rely on the discretion of the crowns to ensure that in those serious cases they do proceed by way of indictment. It's a discretion we give to our crowns in many contexts, and I'm not concerned that they are going to exercise that discretion improperly.

So that was perhaps one of the disadvantages about drawing that sentencing line at ten years, because some of these did fall through the cracks in that sense, but there are remedies that the crowns could use in order to ensure that in serious cases the conditional sentencing option simply is not open.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

As long as we understand that people are saying protect our kids...protect them. There's too much going on, and do you know what? They don't really care about the costs. As long as the protection for the kids is there, we'll look after the costs. In some way we'll take care of it. I believe that's a strong attitude of the society that pays these bills, and I think we should continue this kind of work, to do as much as we can to answer their call.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Just briefly on that point, you'll note that there was a recent survey done among Ontario teachers in respect of the raising of the age of protection from 14 to 16, and there was a high preponderance of support for that legislation. I believe, on average, it was about 75% strongly supporting, so the percentage supporting would have been even higher, and that's not inconsistent with other groups in society. I've seen similar types of surveys done years ago where that protection of children is so important. So I think you're speaking for mainstream Canada when you express your concerns, Mr. Thompson.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you.

It wasn't too long ago they used to hang cattle rustlers, by the way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Thompson.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Well, we're not going to bring that back.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

Thank you for coming, Mr. Minister.

Of the eight cases or so that you mentioned, how many have reoffended since the conditional sentence that was outlined in your speech?