Justice Committee on Sept. 21st, 2006

[Michael Martin]

One of the issues one runs into all the time when we look at crime rates is essentially comparability. There are issues obviously with comparability with incarceration rates as well because of differing systems. At the CCJS there was a study done specifically looking at comparability of types of crime and trying to make the crime comparison between the United States and Canada. We don't have those with us here, but there was a study done that did focus on identifying the kinds of things that are comparable and what aren't comparable.

That certainly is an issue here when you're looking at trying to make international comparisons in any domain. This is exemplary, based on what we do know in terms of how countries incarcerate and what the various levels are. In terms of the crime rates themselves, that's something we haven't done.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

That would be interesting for the committee to get from someone.

On chart 12--I think Judy asked this question, but I just want to ask it in a different way because you said you couldn't answer it for her. If you assumed that everyone who had a conditional sentence in 2003-04 would go to jail once Bill C-9 is passed, how many people in total, if you added all this up, in Canada would go to jail that wouldn't have? Assuming everything was the same and assuming that everyone who had a conditional sentence--and you say here roughly a third--went to jail, what would that number be with the numbers you're using? I just can't add them all up.

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

There are a few points in response to your question.

That's a very difficult definitive number to be able to provide. In our analysis to date within slide 12 that you referred to, what we did was take the Bill C-9 Criminal Code listed offences that were at the end of the legislative summary document and we applied them regardless of the type of procedure that was followed to our 2003-04 data. With that application we found that about a third of those who had been awarded a conditional sentence would have been convicted of one of those Bill C-9 offences. Then, in the analysis, again not taking into account the way of procedure, we added to those drug offences--drug trafficking and drug possession offences--to come up with the number of 4,865 persons who would have been either a Bill C-9 listed offence as per the document or a drug offence.

It's important to note, and I mentioned during the presentation, for that 4,865 population we then conducted the analysis we had done throughout the presentation. We looked at guilty pleas and prior conviction history, for example. Once we took into account the prior conviction history and the guilty pleas, we were left with 310 people who did not enter a guilty plea and who had a prior conviction history. Of that 310 we were able to look at the way of procedure, and 110 of those individuals had proceeded by way of summary conviction. We were left with 200 people for whom we really can't speak to any other mitigating factors that may have been in place. We simply don't have any other data. That's the analysis that we have conducted in terms of your question.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I just want to get the numbers, that's all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Okay, get them on.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So there were roughly 4,000 people that would have fit under Bill C-9 that had conditional sentences. Is that right? From how many provinces was that?

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

These are our courts data, so there are some exclusions. We cover about 70% of the national criminal court workload, so we have about 70% coverage.

It's really important to make the point here that the 4,800, let's say, individuals are those who would have been convicted of one of the offences that was listed in the legislative document as being a Bill C-9 offence. To that we added just over 1,900 drug trafficking offences and some drug possession offences, of which we know that the drug trafficking--about 90% from our data--are indictable offences. From that, then, we did the analysis on the guilty pleas. But we did not at the outset take into account the procedure that was followed, whether it was indictable or summary. We did that after we were breaking down that 300 population, after we had done the subsequent analysis. So that's the way our analysis proceeded in this particular case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

I have one question that comes to light. Where the sentences were conditional, how many breaches relating to those sentences were there?

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

We can't answer that particular question with our data set.

Our information on breaches is what you've seen from slide 15. For those jurisdictions, New Brunswick and Saskatchewan, where we have the data, we're able to look at the breaches that resulted in an admission to custody. What we cannot do with our data at this point in time is speak to the overall number of breaches--for example, any that did not result in a custody admission.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Can you single out the data that applies solely to Aboriginals? I would imagine you could for those residing in the Northwest Territories, Nunavut and the Yukon. Statistics are also available for Quebec. Aboriginals can be found just about everywhere. We can't forget the Huron village in Mr. Petit's riding.

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

In our court's data program, we do not have an aboriginal identifier, so we are unable to conduct the court's analysis for aboriginal and non-aboriginal populations.

Michael has presented some data from the correctional services program, and he can perhaps speak to the availability of data in that program.

[Michael Martin]

The last slides that you saw on correctional services, where we looked at whether they returned to custody on a breach or become re-involved, can be done by aboriginal. It's only the corrections data that allows us to do the aboriginal breakdowns.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Would you be able to get these figures for us?

[Michael Martin]

Yes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I understand.

I'd also like to know if you have any statistics on index crime in Canada since 1977? Does Statistics Canada compiles figures of this nature? I'd like an answer. I'm sure you can guess what my next question will be.

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

We have been collecting data on police-reported crimes since the early sixties.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Based on available statistics from 1977 to 1996 relating to the offences listed in BIll C-9, do you have any data to share with us on incarceration and probation? There was not such thing as a conditional sentence of imprisonment at the time. Could you possibly get these figures to us quickly?

[Craig Grimes]

There are a couple of problems involved in putting those data together.

First, for the vast majority of the country, there's no court data going back prior to roughly 1994-95. I wouldn't be able to put together any data related to the conviction history of those individuals, or whether or not there was a conviction.

On the police-reported crime, there is a difficulty in putting the statistics together in relation to the legislative summary of Bill C-9. The legislative summary lists the offences by statute section, subsection, and paragraph. Police-reported crime is reported based upon a UCR-2 violation code. There may not be a one-to-one match with those offence categories.

So if we put together an offence history going back to 1977, there may be many more offences in that category than you'd want to see, and for that legislative summary.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

How far back can you go prior to the introduction of this measure in 1996?

[Craig Grimes]

For court data it's 1994-95. There is some data prior to that, but then we're talking about a very small part of the country. We have roughly 80% going back to 1994-95.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Can you get these figures for us?

[Craig Grimes]

For those offences in the legislative summary?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Yes.

[Craig Grimes]

Yes, where there is a match; when there's a new offence and we have a new section, subsection, and paragraph, it will start at the time when we start receiving data.

I'll put together what I can for you and provide it to the committee.