Justice Committee on Oct. 18th, 2006

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

These are the kinds of things that I never knew existed. How to direct these people is something we face fairly regularly.

Another thing that has me puzzled is whether it is because of a lack in the number of people serving in legal aid that we have such a backlog in the courts. Are we short of legal aid people? Is that the problem? People in my riding are waiting for trials still to get moving, and it seems that there's a shortage of legal aid people. Is that the case?

[Donald Piragoff]

There's no one cause for backlogs in the justice system. There are a number of different reasons. Part of it may be legal aid, part of it may be simply an increase in crime in certain jurisdictions, part of it may be due to other factors.

What the Conservative government has done is set up a number of working groups with the provinces and territories to look at the causes of backlogs. We've also set up a steering committee composed of judges, the bar association, and some representatives of the provinces' attorneys general, to look at justice efficiencies—in other words, where the justice system can be made more efficient. One of the priorities of the provinces right now is looking at remand backlogs. The backlogs exist because it is taking a while for certain people to get to trial.

But one can't simply say it's because of a lack of legal aid that there are backlogs. It's a complex problem, and that's why we're looking at it.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

That's good. But the department is looking at it, and it can be resolved?

[Donald Piragoff]

Yes, together with the provinces. And also we've brought in the bar association and the judges so that we could have a multi-disciplinary examination of this problem of court backlog.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

We have had a couple of cases in my riding that have puzzled me. One was a head-on collision by a drunk driver from the reserve, who killed four people. It took longer to have that case resolved than the sentence he got. There were 18 court hearings. It went on and on, and it was all through legal aid.

I'm trying to understand why that would be, when the initial plea was guilty. How can that possibly happen? I could give you the specifics of the case, but it went for 18 trials. I know, because I was at every one waiting for the results, as the people who died in this situation and the driver of the vehicle were all from my riding. I know it was legal aid that was assisting the offender.

Is there any explanation as to why certain cases would go 18 times, in which the plea is entered as guilty?

[Donald Piragoff]

I can't comment on a specific case when I don't know what happened. In that situation, the best person to ask would be the provincial attorney general who was responsible for the prosecution.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

That would be good. When we're paying for legal aid, I'd really like a clear explanation as to why we'd have to pay so much for legal aid in that case, because it went on and on and on.

The last one I have is that the SPCA brought a charge against a farmer in my riding. Normally, when these SPCA people bring a charge related to animals, there is an automatic $1,000 fine, and if you just pay it, it's done. But this farmer was a little upset and he wanted to challenge it. Of course, I don't know whether that was a civil or a criminal thing, or what, but it was a rather interesting case, because he wanted legal aid and didn't qualify. So he hired a lawyer and was found innocent of animal abuse and ended up owing the lawyer $11,000. He could have paid $1,000 and been done with it, but he ended up owing this lawyer $11,000. Of course the next case was the lawyer in court trying to collect $11,000 from the farmer.

These things seem just to go on and on. I'm wondering whether legal aid can contribute to helping. This slow tying-up of the process of getting the job done seems to be a lack of legal assistance. Can legal aid contribute to helping speed up the process and allow the stuff that just goes on and on?

I don't really know what to lay my finger on, except it seems that the backlogging and a few other things are getting completely out of control.

[Catherine Latimer]

I was just going to say that you have raised a very significant problem that hurts accessibility to the justice system for a lot of people, and there are lots of things that can be done to speed things along. For example, the federal Department of Justice has issued guidelines for reasonable child support, which has led to easier and faster solutions in a lot of areas where these areas would be hotly contested before.

It is important that we look at some of these issues from a systemic basis to see if there are ways in which these issues can be sped up and made much more accessible to people generally.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you for that. If there's anything that takes place, I'd like to be part of it. We deal with these kinds of issues locally all the time, and it would be very helpful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Thompson.

Mr. Murphy.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The issue of backlog is fairly interesting. One of the sure but partial solutions to it would be for the government to get on with making the appointments to the judiciary that are open, but I suppose the criteria for the list are so small that it might be difficult to do that quickly.

In any event, I'd like any of the witnesses to tell me whether any of you went to or kept abreast of the first ministers meeting on justice recently and the Canadian Bar Association meeting in St. John's, Newfoundland.

[Donald Piragoff]

Yes, to both questions, but not the same individual.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

That's all I wanted to know, because it is a matter of public record that the outgoing president of the Canadian Bar Association, who was a classmate of mine, excoriated the government, and I think that's a non-partisan issue at the moment. He got really mad, rootin' tootin' mad, at the government, and I don't think it was just the current government. It was at the government's abandonment of legal aid in this country. The first ministers, one of whom I know quite well, are concerned about legal aid being in crisis.

As ministerial officials here, do you accept that legal aid is in crisis in this country? If you don't want to be as traumatic as saying “crisis”, do you think it's in good shape?

[Donald Piragoff]

All systems can be improved. All systems can be worse. In this country we have a relatively good legal aid system compared with other countries. That is not to say it cannot be improved, and that's why ministers last week in Newfoundland agreed that they would work together to negotiate new agreements. The minister gave his commitment to his colleagues that he would bring their concerns about legal aid to his cabinet colleagues around the federal table. There has clearly been goodwill expressed by the minister publicly that legal aid is an issue that requires federal participation because of the cost, that this is not something that can be borne by the provinces individually, and despite the fact that it is solely within the provinces' constitutional jurisdiction, the government will continue this participation.

To that extent, I think we should let the ministers continue their discussions, and hopefully they'll come up with an agreement within the next year or two and have a renewed legal aid strategy and funding agreement for whatever period of time they agree to extend it.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

On the answer you gave earlier on the supplementary estimates moving the legal aid contribution from under roughly $120 million required in the 2005-06 main estimates down to $80 million in the 2006-07 estimates, your answer was that in the supplementary estimates coming this would be restored. Did I understand correctly? Was that to roughly $120 million?

[Donald Piragoff]

Yes, that's correct. It is $126 million, I believe.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

What I didn't understand from your answer either—be more precise, if you would—was whether that includes any of the estimated increase that any legislation that is part of the government platform would cost legal aid.

[Donald Piragoff]

That amount is based on last year's levels. Because of the termination of the three-year agreement on March 31 and the inability to negotiate new agreements, with the change of government, etc., the $80 million was in the original main estimates budget of last year. It is basically almost a kind of A-based funding, and it's base funding that has been allotted to the department for legal aid purposes.

The extra $40 million is something that has to be sought every year. It could not have been sought originally because of the change of government, and therefore it comes halfway through the year, through supplementaries.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Right now, even at $126 million, if that's what the figure is going to be, none of that includes increased legal aid costs as a result of the government program, let's say, of Bill C-9, Bill C-10, and Bill C-27.

All we really know is that the government has put about $225 million in Mr. Flaherty's budget for prisons, when our estimate is that the capital for prisons is $1.5 billion. Notwithstanding that the government has done estimates for cabinet purposes on police, prison, and legal aid costs, we don't have those figures and we don't know the cost of the program.

Mr. Thompson is a big supporter of the program. He says his people tell him that whatever the costs are, we'll pay for it. I would think he and others would want to know what it's going to cost and would stand behind the figures.

I guess we're waiting for that. Mr. Moore may have them in his sheath of documents over there, but we'll have to wait for another day and another witness to get that answer. Is that right?

[Donald Piragoff]

As I said, I'm not at liberty to disclose information that was discussed in cabinet. Only the minister has the authority to discuss that.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Why can't you tell me about the supplementary? That's not purely cabinet.

[Donald Piragoff]

I think the minister has already publicly indicated that he is coming with the—

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I think he said something about the cost of legal aid for Bill C-9, Bill C-10, and Bill C-27. I think I heard that today in the locker room or somewhere.

No, that doesn't work. Oh well, darn it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Do you have any information on how the legal aid system in Canada compares to other countries? Would we be comparatively generous?