Justice Committee on Oct. 18th, 2006

[Barbara Merriam]

We have a researcher, who is not with us today, who studies the systems around the world. He would certainly be in a better position than I am to comment on other systems.

But I think, as Mr. Piragoff said, there's always room for improvement, and that's what we are always trying to do with our provincial and territorial counterparts. We have a federal-provincial-territorial permanent working group on legal aid. We have representatives from every province and territory and from every legal aid plan. We're trying to work together collaboratively at the officials' level.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

As much as it's fair to say there's always room for improvement, at some point I would be interested in seeing how Canada compares to other countries, and if it's not available today, that's fine. Is Canada more of a model in terms of generosity, or is it lagging behind?

[Donald Piragoff]

We could probably make the research available to you, if it's there, and provide it to the clerk.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Does legal aid actually provide a service to Canadians that would be charged for in another country? Would they provide funding for an offender who is charged in another country?

[Barbara Merriam]

No.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Is that a suggestion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

No, it's not. I'm aware of challenges that have come before the courts in other nations, particularly the U.S., where Canadian legal counsel was provided. I'm only curious about whether it's through legal aid or through some other aspect of funding.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I could answer that question because one of my clients was involved with the justice system in the United States. There is a legal aid system in the United States, just as there is in Australia, Great Britain, New Zealand and several European countries. I know this because I have had clients in those countries.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

I'm aware of that. That wasn't my question, though; that wasn't my question.

On the drug courts, if the witnesses recall, a few years ago there was a substantial withdrawing of drug charges in a court in British Columbia. In fact, I think it was on more than one occasion. Several hundreds, if not thousands, of cases were withdrawn because of a backlog, and a lot of it was attributed to that. Have the drug courts become more efficient in dealing with the huge number of cases before them? Is this one of the reasons they were established?

[Donald Piragoff]

The drug treatment courts are not dealing with the largest proportion of the drug offences in the country. The drug treatment courts are really dealing with a very small subset of offenders who fit the criteria. In other words, they are non-violent, they are not exploiting children, and they are not engaged in commercial trafficking. They are people who the system--the prosecutors, the defence--have agreed are possibly candidates for treatment. That's the purpose of the drug treatment courts.

When you refer to drug courts, yes, in certain courts 90% to 100% of the business is drug cases, but they're dealing with all kinds of drug cases--trafficking, simple possession, everything. The drug treatment court is a special subset of drug courts in general.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you.

Mr. Bagnell, you have time for one question. You've got two minutes.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

How are the negotiations going for next year's funding, starting April 1?

[Barbara Merriam]

At the officials' level, we work very cooperatively with our FPT permanent working group on legal aid. We gather information there to assist our minister. The minister, in participating in the FPT meeting last week and also through meetings with his counterparts across the country, gleans information. At this point that's about all I can say, because any decision about the future would be a cabinet decision.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

One of the directors told me the funding talks are stalled--that they're not even talking; that there's no indication they will continue; that when they finally finish all the negotiations, it will take a long time to do the agreements. The provinces and territories are waiting to determine their funding. All this has to happen before April 1. People don't know how to plan their programs and their staffing; people are leaving.

I have one last question. In the estimates, I think the budget for the Yukon--I don't know if it's the cost-shared budget--is roughly $1.32 million, and for the other two territories it's $5 million. We've roughly the same populations. How come we can't have more money?

[Barbara Merriam]

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I mean the legal aid money.

[Barbara Merriam]

Yes. For the three territories, we do things a bit differently. We have what's called access to justice services agreements. In these agreements we roll in the money for legal aid, the money for public legal education, and the money for the aboriginal court work program. It's all funnelled through one agreement. About 70% of the money is for criminal and civil legal aid in the territories. This year will be exactly the same as last year; it would have been negotiated with the territories for the past three years, and it's going to be exactly the same this year.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

Mr. Lemay is next.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'd like to understand something. Under "Total Contributions", there is a category called "Items not required". Once again, that is the answer you gave to my first question earlier. There is a subsection entitled "Contributions in support of Federal Court ordered counsel—Unique legal aid cases". That $250,000 will be in the supplementary estimates.

What do you mean by unique legal aid cases in the Federal Court? Did I misread this?

[Donald Piragoff]

Yes, as I indicated in an earlier question--I believe it was from Mr. Moore regarding the difference between legal aid and court-ordered legal assistance--this federal money for unique legal cases has been allocated to address the cost to the federal government, where the courts have ordered the provision of legal assistance in the context of federal prosecutions.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

There are several programs. I'll list just a few: "Contributions for access to justice services to the territories (being legal aid, Aboriginal courtwork and public legal education and information services)".

If I understood correctly, this is only for the three territories. Am I correct?

[Barbara Merriam]

Yes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you. I also see: "Contributions under the Aboriginal Justice Strategy Fund".

Does that include legal aid or is that a completely different program?

[Barbara Merriam]

It's a totally different program; it's not legal aid.