Justice Committee on Oct. 18th, 2006

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

I have a point of order. My understanding of what we agreed to on Monday is that we were going to be discussing drug courts and legal aid, not having a wide-ranging discussion on.... We as a committee agreed to limit discussion, and as a result, we have people here who are experts in those areas.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Well, in all fairness to Mr. Lee also, if the presenters are unable to answer the question, they'll tell Mr. Lee that they are unable to answer the question. I don't have a problem with that.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I'm okay with that too, Mr. Chairman, because we did signal what the issues were for this meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Yes, and they are focused.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

But as we read on the same page of the legal aid—

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

I would ask the members to try to stick to the topic, at least.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Well, as I read the page dealing with legal aid and the Law Commission, I'm looking right down the gun barrel at $2.6 million in new spending, and that's something I haven't seen before.

So I'll just ask the question. If there's an answer, great; if there isn't, we'll pick up on it later.

[Donald Piragoff]

Mr. Chairman, on this question we do have the experts available to answer with respect to victims.

I'd like to introduce to you Catherine Kane, who is responsible for the victims program within the Department of Justice. Mr. Chairman, I believe she can answer Mr. Lee's question concerning the funding for victims.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you.

Ms. Kane.

[Catherine Kane, Senior Counsel, Director, Policy Centre for Victim Issues, Department of Justice]

Thank you.

There is a $2 million grants and contributions fund in the Department of Justice to encourage innovative projects to meet the needs of victims of crime. That money can be provided, on a project basis, to provinces and territories and to non-governmental organizations. In addition, there's a small component that's for emergency financial assistance to individual victims where there's no other source of funding available. That's the $2.1 million component. That's been in existence for six years now, and we have that funding through to 2010. So that would have appeared in the department's estimates since 2005.

Last year we were operating under special warrants, because as my colleagues explained, the program sunsetted and we were renewed, but the renewal got caught up in the election process. So there may appear to be zero in one of those years, but we did have the money and we did spend it very well, and it has been positively evaluated.

The other $500,000 you referred to is the current resources available to us to assist victims to travel to National Parole Board hearings by covering their travel costs. As the minister has indicated, he does intend to enhance both of those funds, but for the time being, we're operating with the $2 million for the program and the $0.5 million for travel to parole hearings.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Lee.

We go to Mr. Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry for being late, I was at a press conference on the Coffin case. I'd like to thank the Minister's Office for helping us through its officials.

I'd like to ask two questions. If they've already been asked, I apologize. I will understand if you don't want to repeat yourselves, but I'm still going to go ahead and take my chances. Reading the documents last night is what inspires me to ask these questions.

I was surprised to read that under the heading "Contributions in support of Public Security and Anti-Terrorism—Legal Aid", the budget goes from $500,000 to $2 million. I would like you to explain to me what this budget item is for. What has been done and why the substantial increase, when, as we know, other programs have been eliminated, programs that in our humble opinion, deserved to be renewed?

[Donald Piragoff]

Thank you for your questions. As I said, in 2001, the government allocated the necessary funding for legal aid needs associated with anti-terrorism.

At that time, as I indicated, Mr. Chairman, the government set up a separate legal aid fund to support legal aid that might be required as a result of new prosecutions under the new laws that Parliament enacted in 2001, as well as other associated costs, like extradition and so on.

Last year, there were six individuals seeking funding under the special PSAT legal aid fund. This year there are 19 individuals seeking funding. As you know, within the last year there have been a number of charges laid under the new Anti-terrorism Act, and therefore there are now new, increased anticipated costs for legal aid.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I want to make sure I get this right. People charged under the Anti-Terrorism Act can get aid to defend themselves, but that aid is not channeled through the provinces. Do those individuals apply directly to the federal government? I imagine, for example, that in the case of the six people being prosecuted, it is redistributed to the provinces.

[Donald Piragoff]

That is correct.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Yet, those people who have been accused of being involved in terrorist organizations have to request assistance from the provincial legal aid system. That's my understanding.

That brings me to my second question. I would like you to be perfectly comfortable and for your generosity to match my conviction that my question is well founded. You are aware that we are considering Bill C-9, whose future is uncertain, and Bill C-10. Both bills could lead to an increase in the prison population. You could tell me that an increase in the prison population is part of the Conservative Party's platform, but I don't want to ask you political questions.

Have you assessed the impacts of theses bills on the demand for legal aid? I know that you have. Otherwise you would not be living up to your responsibilities. Would you agree to providing us with these studies, if we guarantee you that they will be for our use only?

[Donald Piragoff]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As I indicated, the various departments have provided to the government cost estimates of the proposed reforms. Those include cost estimates with respect to policing, prosecution services, prison services, as well as legal aid. Those figures have been presented to cabinet. I'm not permitted to disclose information that was provided to cabinet; the minister, however, could.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Perhaps our chairman would agree to making a request. I know that you are quite close to the Minister of Justice and to his immediate colleagues and it would be unfortunate if legislation were passed without our knowing the numbers. As the Gomery Commission's report stated, a parliamentary committee has to have convincing and conclusive facts to enable us to play our role as members of Parliament. If my colleagues agree, we could ask our chairman to request those numbers of the Minister of Justice. As you know, according to some rumours, the cost could be roughly $1 billion.

Could you nod your head if you think those rumours have any substance to them? A billion dollars, that's a lot. Do those rumours have any substance to them?

[Donald Piragoff]

I think it would be better to ask the minister questions related to costs.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Then, Mr. Chairman, we will give you that mandate. I know that you are just as keen as I am to have those numbers. If my colleagues agree, we could ask to write to our Minister of Justice to request those numbers.

Do I have time for a third question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

No, Mr. Ménard, and certainly the matter could be posed to the minister to determine what response he might wish to give.

Mr. Thompson.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Yes. Thanks for coming.

There are a couple of things I need to find out about that deal with the kind of work we do in our ridings. There are a number of people who come with various types of issues. In most cases they are provincial matters—social services, workmen's compensation, and such things. About the best thing you can advise them is, “You need to get a lawyer and challenge this.” Of course, the first answer you get in a lot of these cases is, “I can't afford a lawyer”. Well, you need to go to legal aid. “Well, I don't qualify for legal aid.”

What do you do as an MP when you face those kinds of dilemmas in your riding? What's the simplest way to guide these people who are looking for genuine help? I could pass the buck to the MLAs, but they're looking to me for help, and I'd like to do it myself.

[Donald Piragoff]

They're the experts.

[Barbara Merriam]

The examples you give are quite common across the country. What you could suggest to people is to contact the public legal education organization or agency in their province to see if there are any pamphlets or papers that could help explain the process you would have to go through if you were representing yourself. The legal aid plans themselves have websites and often have helpful information that is open to the public. Those are some....