Justice Committee on Nov. 6th, 2006

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I think that's a good point, given that the prior government did not formally respond to six of the Law Commission reports; they simply didn't even respond to them. I'm wondering what the value was. Not only did they not ask for the reports, but they also didn't respond to those reports.

All I can say is that I think there's a better way of obtaining value for money as well as good independent legal opinions, whether those are from the universities or from the bar association. Chiefs of police, for example, have a legislative committee that analyzes legislation; it is certainly independent of government, and they are more than willing to provide that information on a request basis.

I can only agree with you that there are better ways of dealing with Canadian taxpayer dollars than through the particular mechanism that was put in place here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Minister and Deputy Minister, for coming.

I want to go on the record, as I have before, just at the beginning, to make sure people know I think it's an absolutely reprehensible cut and it fits right in within the pattern of the government cutting the most vulnerable in our society in a number of ways.

In this particular case, we've had evidence to the type of reports of people who were helped, the aboriginal people, the farthest from Ottawa, who would have the least chance to study things in my riding--the Teslin Tlingit Council, the Carcross/Tagish people, who are Tlingits, the people in the north, low-income workers, as we heard from in previous testimony. There's just no need for this type of cut.

The minister and the parliamentary secretary are using the bar association. And the bar association, on November 2, said, “An independent Law Commission can engage in innovative research and adopt a multi-disciplinary approach to law reform, engaging experts in law, social sciences and humanities to study these issues on a macro level.” We were frankly surprised to hear some ministers suggest that CBA could fill this role, and now the parliamentary secretary is saying that.

Of course, as the minister said, they coordinate all sorts of groups in coming up with these reports, and I don't think the minister answered the question from Mr. Murphy on whether it hurt our international position. I can tell you that Irwin Cotler, an international expert, was told twice on trips around the world shortly after these decisions that the international community was shocked.

I guess one of the biggest supports for this committee itself is the fact of what the minister and the parliamentary secretary have just said--of all the good ideas they've given to government and MPs and the research they've done that has helped people, the many reports over the 10 years, only once did government come up with that. The Law Commission had to come up with these ideas. They're there to improve government, and they came up with all those ideas, the current ideas of the day and suggestions of how to go, which is the exact reason you would incorporate people.

My first question requires just a very short answer. We just came from question period where the government was chastised roundly for breaking an election promise on income trusts. Did you tell the electorate at any time during the election campaign that you were going to close the Law Commission?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Did I personally? Do you want me to start bringing in conversations with Liberal MPs that I've just had about this particular income trust? Is that what you want me to do?

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

No, the Law Commission. I'm asking you if any time during the last election campaign you said you were going to close the Law Commission.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

So you don't want me to talk about what Liberal MPs, including very senior people inside your party, told me about the income trust issue when I was talking--

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I'm asking you a question as to whether you said you were going to close the Law Commission. You don't want to answer the question, right?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

No, you're not asking about that issue.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Did you tell anyone that you were going to close the Law Commission? It's a simple question.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

All right. You're not asking about the income trust and what senior Liberal members told me about--

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

No, I'm asking you about the Law Commission. How come you're hiding?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

All I was trying to do, Mr. Chair, was say he wasn't talking about the income trust issue.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

It was a simple question. I can see you're worried about the issue.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

All right, so it's not what senior Liberals might have told me about the income trust position.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

That's a pretty poor answer.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

All right, we'll leave that issue alone.

But in respect of the Law Commission of Canada, no, I don't believe I've ever talked about this in any campaign. It's not high on the list in my riding, I think, or else somebody would have brought it to my attention.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Sims, did you ever provide advice to this government, or any advice that the Law Commission was not productive, or was not useful, or was not helpful, or was not a good expenditure of money?

[John Sims, Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice]

I've given advice to this government on many things, and to this minister, but I don't think it would be appropriate for me to tell this committee the nature of the advice I've given confidentially to the minister.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So, Mr. Minister, did you get any advice from anyone in the department that the Law Commission was ineffective, was not useful, or did not provide helpful advice?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Did I provide that advice?

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Did you get any advice from anyone in the Department of Justice?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I'm just trying to recall the specific nature of the advice. We had discussions on a number of options, and this was the option that the government eventually came up with.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

But was the advice that it was not useful or that is was ineffective?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

The basic question we were asked to look at was the efficiencies, and could the same services be delivered through other channels or other mechanisms?

I note, for example, the member indicated the great work that the Law Commission did. Does the member recall the response on any of these by the Government of Canada while the Liberals were in power?

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

This is—