In addition, I think there are two separate issues. One is programming and one is being in prison. There certainly are some studies that would suggest the programming outside of prison is likely to be more effective, part of it being that what we're talking about in Canada is we have relatively few.... At the moment we have about 32,000 people in prison. Most of those are going to get out; a very small number will not.
So what we have to think about is not just the fact that we put them in prison, but rather that we have to reintegrate. The longer you put people in prison, or rather put them in prison as opposed to looking for something else in particular, you make it more difficult for them to come back and live a peaceful life.
I have no problem in suggesting we have to send some people to prison, and there are some people, in a simple proportionality model of sentencing, for whom we're not going to be able to figure out anything other than prison. I have no difficulty with that. I think the argument is that we're not really making ourselves safe by doing that. What we may be doing, by having a certain number of people in prison, is accomplishing a proportionality model of sentencing.
Without calling it what it is, what we've really got in the sentencing system is a punishment system, and what we're looking for is a fair punishment system. If we're looking to reduce crime, we should look elsewhere.