Justice Committee on Jan. 30th, 2007

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

With your permission, I'm going to come back to that. I'm more concerned than you, but I hope I'm wrong. We'll get back to that, with your permission.

As regards what goes on in the prisons, give us some actual examples. How are people handled when it's known they belong to a street gang or to organized crime? How do the gang leaders intervene?

[Ross Toller]

Each case is looked at individually, of course, but we have a number of responses. The first....

Perhaps it's better to speak more slowly.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

The important thing is that the Chair grant me more time.

[Ross Toller]

All right. Pardon me.

I can try to answer in French, if you wish, but my—

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

No, that's fine. The important thing is that I get an answer.

[Ross Toller]

Okay. Merci beaucoup.

We have a security response that we would look at in terms of the management of inmates of organized crime within a correctional frame. Right now we have in Canada one extreme special handling unit that is our highest level of security, which is in the Quebec area. Right now perhaps one of the most prolific inmates who is known to organized crime is incarcerated there. This person, from our perspective of looking at the case, still poses a significant risk to the staff and other inmates within the correctional frame and also poses a significant risk of having the capacity to maybe continue to even influence control from within a penitentiary centre. We have placed him and will continue to monitor his case and have always that option available to us for the restricting of security movements at the highest frame.

In addition, as you know, we're structured along levels of security for maximum and medium institutions. Those in themselves have limitations of movement, limitations of capacity to associate, limitations within visits that we can apply at every particular point in time.

You asked about the treatment component. Again, it's an array. We look at each case in terms of individual needs. In terms of the complexities, when you're dealing with organized crime, you have variations across a number of scales. There are some who are absolutely extremely hard-core, committed to their gang, and I think no matter what will never change. I think that's the example we've given. We have others who are maybe wannabes, who maybe want to join just for the sake of being a joiner. We have to look at each one of those in terms of our responsivity. What is it that will stop that? What will discourage the interest to join? We look at the needs across a number of scales. Did somebody join because of a lack of education? Did somebody join because of a lack of employment? Did somebody join because of his hostility scale? Has somebody joined because there are some mental health issues? In each case we do a comprehensive intake assessment of each individual case associated with that as well look at what we can deliver in terms of programs to try to mitigate or dissuade that person from continuing on in those types of processes.

They are often individually based in terms of treatment. We are beginning to do an awful lot of work around the research. I think we heard some testimony here today, certainly from the community, on young children who are looking to join gangs. We've intercepted pictures of visitors coming in where young children are beginning to show gang colours to somehow, I guess, continue in the representation of their family.

So we continue to work on family matters, continue to work with the community on those types of elements.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Toller.

Mr. Comartin.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I asked Mr. Ouellette a question; can he answer it quickly?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

You may get his answer, yes.

Mr. Ouellette.

[Sgt Guy Ouellette]

There's nothing to change in the Criminal Code. Let's use what we have properly. We don't need to change anything whatever right now.

What's different in the investigation techniques regarding street gangs is that they are less visible, less structured and less obvious. They don't wear patches. We have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada. It's not illegal to wear patches, but it is to commit crimes.

I'd like to help Mr. Toller by telling him that he's not working any miracles if the police aren't doing their job, no more so than if the prosecutor, when seeking the sentence, withdraws the gangsterism charges and, for the needs of the court, doesn't say that the guy belongs to a criminal organization, that he's a member of the Hells Angels. If he says nothing, because there's been a plea bargain in order to send an individual to prison for six years on drug trafficking charges, he doesn't know.

Over the years, I've prepared an album of pictures of all the Hells Angels in Canada. I shared that list of names with the Correctional Service people. When they have a problem, they obviously ask questions. They ask what gang the guy belongs to. The guys said they were members of another particular gang. Officials checked with police. However, if the police don't have all the facts so that they can provide evidence in court, I'm sorry, but the Correctional Service people can't classify the individual: they're forced to classify him in relation to the prison. So it's not them yet. So if people aren't doing their job and there's no communication between the parties, at some point, the inmate may find himself in the wrong wing and get beaten up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Ouellette.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here. It's been a very interesting morning so far.

I want to pursue this point avec vous, Monsieur Ouellette.

In my opinion, that's always a problem. Take the example of the police officers at our offices who worked in the Bernardo and Pickton cases. We think that, if police officers communicated more, perhaps we'd get results more quickly and perhaps we could prevent crime.

Is there a province or a city where that's done properly, where police officers from different offices cooperate? Does that occur somewhere in Canada?

[Sgt Guy Ouellette]

It's happened in the context of the fight against organized crime. We experienced it in Operation Wolverine, at the start, when we forced — that isn't too strong a word — police organizations to meet and exchange information. I'm not engaging in advertising, but I mentioned it in my book. We all work together, except that, in the case of a major operation where we manage to bring 90 or 100 individuals together, observe how the press conference takes place: all the officers put their uniforms on and it's a competition to grab the microphone to make a statement. Then people identify the police departments; they see red, blue and green, and they of course identify the RCMP. If someone from the RCMP speaks, then, in people's minds, it's the RCMP that did the work.

We'll really get total cooperation among all police departments the day we all dress in suits, like this morning, to step up to the mike and hold a press conference. At that point, people will say that it's the police that did the work. But we're still very far from that because there are also a lot of cultural differences between the federal and provincial levels. Computers don't communicate information in the prisons.

Let's talk about the federal parole system. An inmate is serving his first federal sentence and is eligible for accelerated parole review. He may have had five or six provincial convictions, and the federal level doesn't know it. The inmate is released, whereas he's on his sixth conviction, because the computers haven't transmitted the information. So there's a little work to be done in that area. There's no perfect model; we need men of good will so that we can hope to change the situation.

We're facing a challenge. Mr. Ménard mentioned section 467.13. I referred to Mr. Ciarnello. He challenged section 467.11 after winning his case against section 467.13. But as our police departments have trouble exchanging information among themselves, the attorneys have trouble as well. So when we manage to have people convicted, if the information isn't transferred to the Correctional Service, everyone has trouble. However, we have to continue working on that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Richmond, along the same lines, when the push came by the Sûreté du Québec and Mr. Ménard, one of the former Solicitors General, to go after the bikers in Quebec, and Manitoba did the same thing two or three years down the road--and now Ontario has finally got to it--we ended up with both Manitoba and Quebec squeezing the bikers into Ontario. Now what's happening, and it's happening in my home city of Windsor, is that the street gangs are being squeezed in Toronto and they're moving into some of the other municipalities. But that's not being communicated.

Was there any strategy in Quebec, when you started your process, to deal with the other provinces? As we've heard today, the spillover is there, the interconnection is there with the biker gang, certainly, and with the more traditional organized crime.

Is there any communication, when you put a push on, such that you tell Ontario, tell Manitoba, and maybe tell the maritime provinces that there's going to be some spillover from this?

[Randall Richmond]

First of all, I'd like to make a comment on something that has at times been said in the media. People are given the impression sometimes that the bikers in other provinces, such as Ontario, came from Quebec. I don't think that's an accurate reflection of what has happened.

It's true that the Hells Angels as an organization came to Canada in Quebec before they came to Ontario. But when all of a sudden Ontario woke up with over a dozen chapters of the Hells Angels motorcycle club.... Those biker clubs had already existed in Ontario, and had patched over to become members of a much larger international organization.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

But there was an aggressive attempt on the part of the Hells Angels to take them over.

[Randall Richmond]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

And part of that aggression came from the fact that they were being pushed out of Quebec.

[Randall Richmond]

No, I wouldn't say they acquired chapters in Ontario because they felt pressure in Quebec. The effort had begun much earlier. In fact, there were a couple of members of the Quebec Nomads chapter who were actively recruiting all across Canada to try to get other biker clubs to patch over and become Hells Angels. Another thing is that when we made our effort against bikers in Quebec, the result was that most of those we charged were put in jail; so they weren't pushed out into other provinces.

But I think the proper attitude to take is not to ask who is to blame and which province is responsible. I think the proper attitude is that we have to work together all across Canada, because most of these organizations are national and international in character; they have members all across the country and they share information and resources, and we have to do the same if we're going to counteract their activity effectively.

Because of that, I have been cooperating as much as I can with people involved in prosecuting organized crime across the country. I have given lectures to organized crime prosecutors in Vancouver. I have had regular meetings with prosecutors in Ontario. We have contact with the prosecutors in other provinces. And we're presently setting up a website where all prosecutors in organized crime will be able to share information, to be right at the cutting edge of organized crime prosecution.

A lot of efforts have been made and we have to continue in that same direction.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

Mr. Thompson.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you very much for being here. I'd like to congratulate everyone for their presentations.

I was especially pleased, Mr. Delva, that you dwelt on youth at risk and the importance of that particular issue. Having spent 15 years as a high school principal and a junior high principal before coming here, I recognize how serious that situation is. Thank you for that.

I also thank Mr. Ouellette for pointing out the need for getting this disorganized system organized through communication between police forces throughout the country, and noting how disorganized it is.

And to all of you, thank you for your comments on the red tape you have to go through. The red tape in this country is just phenomenal, and I just don't quite understand why it's all that necessary.

To the correctional service, Mr. Toller, I've been to many penitentiaries and I've had presentations from the SIO, special intelligence officers, who do an excellent job. I would recommend that every politician, particularly members of this body, go to a penitentiary and visit with the special intelligence officers to become very informed. They do a very good job about the gangs that exist in our penitentiaries, and I commend them for their work.

But I'm extremely puzzled about something that I can't seem to get the answer to. In our penitentiaries we have what we used to call “solitary confinement”; now they call it “segregation”. Because I'm so old, I'll use the old term. Solitary confinement was always there to punish people for misbehaving, in most cases. Now it's filled with people—in every unit that I was in—who need protection from the gangs that exist within the penitentiary. I visited these individuals and asked, why are you in here? They responded, I owe a drug debt or I owe rent. But I'd say, wait a minute, you're in a penitentiary; how could you possibly have those kinds of debts that you're fearful of your life in a penitentiary in Canada?

The answers I get from some frontline officers are, well it's a pretty simple answer, Mr. Thompson: they are running the show and we're just following along. The officers are very frustrated. And the answer from these people in the segregation units or solitary confinement is, I'd be a dead man if I didn't stay where I am, because of the gangs and because I owe rent.

If you told taxpayers across the country that a whole bunch of people are in solitary confinement or segregation because they don't pay their rent when they're in prison or they haven't paid for their drugs, people would say that you've got to be kidding.

Has anybody got any explanation for why this is out of control within the penitentiaries? I'd like to hear it.

[Ross Toller]

You're putting a number of questions there.

I guess the first thing I would say is that close to 80% of our inmate population comes to prison with some level of drug association. Close to 50%, actually, have an association directly with drug activity. In a number of circumstances, the lessons they have learned in the community at large--to extort, to intimidate, and to look at methods available to secure drugs and use drugs--continues. It has been part of our response, as you just mentioned, in terms of segregation.

And yes, we do see increases in segregation for people who have a level of need to get out of the population. We have responded, unfortunately, with elements at times to increase some of our double bunking, continuing to build on the security intelligence network. What we find, as we build on our security intelligence network, is that it serves our purpose quite strongly in terms of being able to identify these particular issues. But then it creates these infrastructure issues that we're trying to deal with and to take stock of the new numbers that we're beginning to pull up.

Part of our strategy, again, includes a repression part that is beginning to look at trying to limit those who might have an interest in continuing to participate or who might have an interest in even looking at joining.

In terms of the drug approach, we recently finished a national drug audit that looked at this from a number of interdiction capacities that we need to strengthen and improve upon. One of those areas, again, was what I referenced earlier in terms of the security intelligence officers and the important role they play. You did note that they are limited. We have one in each institution, at this particular point in time, for 250 inmates. There are none in the community right now as we begin to transpose that information. To us, that is the best method, we feel, in terms of really managing this issue and getting at this particular issue.

We're catching a bit of a bow wave here, as you've seen. The numbers are beginning to increase with this. We've been responding, as mentioned in my opening comments, to try to keep pace with this and with other elements that are coming at us in terms of our inmate population, along mental health lines, at the same time.

It's a complex issue. It's a struggle issue. Even on the segregation units, as you've mentioned.... And I'm well aware, as you mentioned to me last time about your visit to Bowden, that the prairie region is in an even more unique situation, with the aboriginal gangs. We have built in a process to allow for, in some cases, the monthly transfer of inmates, even across regions. That in itself is sometimes complex, because in some cases, although they might be aboriginal gang members, there's family support in certain cities. So you remove that to allow for a level of integration into a regular population.

I'm not sure if I've touched on some of your issues.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I recognize the complexity of this. There's no doubt about it. It just seems to me that there ought to be a major effort towards a strategy of some sort to say that gang activity will not exist in a penitentiary--not in this country--and we should start moving towards that and mean it.

But every time, it seems like there's a hindrance of some sort when it comes to policy making. I find it really frustrating when maybe a policy or legislation or even a regulation is brought forward, and it doesn't pass the charter test. It can't go that way; it doesn't pass the charter test. Who's the charter protecting in this country? Is it protecting the criminals or is it protecting the victims? I think we've got to start taking a look at how these decisions are being made. It isn't right that this continues.

Mr. Delva mentioned prevention. Boy, that is as necessary as can be. Prevention is really necessary, and I commend you, sir, for your work to that end.

I can remember that after 1982, when the charter came into effect, every time we tried to mention TV programs, mention certain music, mention certain Hollywood ventures, and that maybe this ought to be fought by the principals' associations and educators, we were accused of censorship in a flash.

This kind of attitude is destroying us. We need to get youth out of bush parties and out of block parties where people are being killed. Nobody does anything about them any more because, well, you just can't go there. But that's nonsense. I want to know when the authorities in this country, including the politicians, are going to wake up and do something about it and stop blaming poverty for everything. Because it goes far beyond that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Thompson.

I have a question for the two retired gentlemen--the prosecutor and police officer.

Even though it's considered more of a police officer role when it comes to expert witnesses to organized crime, how many experts would you say there are in this country who could actually fill the position, as you have for a number of years, with biker gangs? You may not be associated with the Asian gangs or others, but how many would be able to replace you?

[Sgt Guy Ouellette]

There is no plan to replace me in the future. If we are talking about street gangs in Quebec, there is one guy, and he's from the Montreal city police. They use him in Toronto, Ottawa, and Niagara Falls. He is the only one. There is no will to produce other guys, because you spend your life there, and you need to be dedicated.

With the other problems out there, they would drown some cases in Ontario. They would drown the gangsterism cases because they don't have any expert on the Hells Angels to help the crown prosecutor. If you read closely the decision of Lindsay and Bonner, you see a comment there that they were using a retired police officer, not an active police officer.

I'll give you an example. In Saskatchewan there was a murder of an inmate called Aime Simard, who was an informer for us, at some point, on a biker gang. He was stabbed 182 times in the penitentiary. It was probably a “suicide”, or something like that.... Two inmates there who did the job have not been charged yet because there is some battle out there between a federal agency and their boss in Ottawa: who's going to be used as an expert to help the Crown in this case? We cannot use a retired police officer from the Sûreté du Québec; he's not a guy from the RCMP. These guys have been warned, and the Crown has been warned, you need to choose a guy here in Saskatchewan who can do the job or no money to do the case.