Justice Committee on May 30th, 2006

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Not at this point; we're very satisfied with how it operates.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Lee.

Ms. Freeman.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I have one or two brief questions for you.

You provide training for two days only. The first day deals with the legislation and the second presents probable scenarios. Earlier, you were asked in which situations you had used these provisions in your exercises.

I would like to know what your probable scenarios are, because you have only two days of training, which is very little in light of all the things that are permitted under these provisions. Could you tell us more about this, particularly about the second day of training, please?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Thank you for your question.

The law itself is not a very complicated piece of legislation. There are just a very, very few subsections to it. As I said, it's really straightforward. On the first day, we simply try to familiarize the police officers with this piece of legislation and run them through it step by step to make sure they have a good thorough understanding. And that's a full day.

On the second day, we try to get them to apply scenarios to what they learned on the first day. For example, if I were to say to you, you're now a designated police officer and you are required to buy counterfeit currency, can you do it? The answer is, yes, I'm designated, I can do it. And if the question were changed a bit and said, now you're going to direct a civilian agent to purchase counterfeit money, can you do it and what authority do you require? Yes, it can be done, but I require authority from a senior official, because now I'm directing a civilian agent. What else? Well, as soon as you finish directing the agent and the act or omission is committed, you need to report back in writing to the senior official; that's by law.

So it's a matter of the application of this not very complex legislation, applying it in scenarios that are very typical, if you will.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I would have liked to have more examples of practical applications. There have been instances where this has already been applied but, in practice, you have doubtless expanded the scope to include things we are not considering. That was what I was really asking.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

That's where it gets a little sensitive, because we try not to bring much attention to the types of investigation we get involved in. But as you see, most of them are very routine investigations; they are not very sensational investigations that you would like to do a TV movie about.

[Supt Thomas Bucher]

Let me add a little bit to your question.

When we're looking at the types of instances where this legislation is applied—and serious organized crime is the major application we use it for—the use of subsection 25.1 in any major investigation is actually a very small component of it. It can come down simply to something like making a one-time purchase, or it could be making a few purchases throughout the course of an investigation. But I think it's important to differentiate between an organized crime investigation and the use of the legislation; it's often a very small part of a much larger operation.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you.

I see there are provisions under which the designation of officers who retire or are no longer part of an undercover operation can be revoked. You are able to revoke three-year designations. How many officers currently have a three-year designation?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

This is another question I would prefer not to—

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

This question is very—

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

I'd be pleased to answer it in camera, but I don't want to make public how many officers we have out there who are capable of—

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Okay. I hope my third question will not be as sensitive in nature.

I want to touch on something you raised earlier. You talked about the limitation, which you referred to in your presentation as the “reasonable and proportional test”. You mentioned that you yourself had preferred not to apply it in the passport scenario, because you felt that, to some extent, this exceeded the scope, although I believe that you could do so under the legislation, correct?

I want to know whether there are any precedents whereby recourse to these powers did not work? You have censured yourself this time but, with regard to the application of the statutory provisions, have there been any instances when things went awry?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

In court?

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Yes.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

To date, that has never happened.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

No mistakes have ever been made?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

The only mistake that—

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I am talking about a mistake with unfortunate consequences.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

No, never.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

So you have a perfect record to date, if I understand correctly.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

The only mistake since February 1, 2002, occurred when someone designated a public officer without the senior official's authorization. The police officer who gave the order realized his mistake and contacted our office by the following day, I believe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Monsieur Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I believe that my colleague's question on the number of designated officers is vital to understanding the scope of the bill, and I wonder if we should not sit in camera for the answer. We should at least be informed of the order of magnitude. I would appreciate an answer. Should we do this now or later? I will leave you to decide, but I think that we need to know.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I think, personally, that it is vital. There are provisions allowing the RCMP to commit acts far beyond what is considered normal, and we are asking how many people on the team have the power to commit an act that would otherwise constitute an offence.